Archived from the Tools In Action forum (Power Tools). This thread is read-only.
Found something new online. Hitachi Presented a multi voltage battery in Japan much like the flexvolt.
Can be either a 18v/5amp battery or a 36v/2.5 amps.
A new impact driver and circular to benefit from the multivolt batteries in 36v modus.
Seems they are completly compatible with everything.
http://www.homemaking.jp/product_info.php?products_id=167033&osCsid=1a7f521fc2fbc6e167da0136d206cb05
Awesome!
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This is pretty cool. Love to see mean green head over this way in strength too.
all tools get 36v power? or is there 36v specific tools that can work in 18v mode if needed?
Wish milwaukee would do something similar. They say they are waiting for new cells for their 18v batteries but doesn’t that mean that whenever these new cells are abailable that someone like dewalt could also put these news cells in their flexvolt batteries and still keep the advantage?
AnonymousJoe wrote:
1 hour ago, AnonymousJoe said:Wish milwaukee would do something similar. They say they are waiting for new cells for their 18v batteries but doesn’t that mean that whenever these new cells are abailable that someone like dewalt could also put these news cells in their flexvolt batteries and still keep the advantage?
DeWalt already has newer cells.20700.
If rumours are true Makita and Milwaukee are waiting on 21700 cells.
Love that they FINALLY decided to have a friggin’ battery gauge on their batteries. Is this going to come to the US, though? Hitachi still has a LOT of higher-end brushless tools that have yet to become available in NA.
kornomaniac wrote:
9 hours ago, kornomaniac said:DeWalt already has newer cells.20700.
If rumours are true Makita and Milwaukee are waiting on 21700 cells.
21700 would make flex even bigger than the 9.0 which would seem like a bad idea considering it is already big enough. I think DeWALT should wait for solid state battery tech. If Makita is going 21700 then x2 may start outperforming Flexvolt. They are already pretty close in performance.
aabee wrote:
3 hours ago, aabee said:Love that they FINALLY decided to have a friggin’ battery gauge on their batteries. Is this going to come to the US, though? Hitachi still has a LOT of higher-end brushless tools that have yet to become available in NA.
Most Makita tools have a gauge on the tool. Guess you have 2 ways to check battery life now.
Jronman wrote:
33 minutes ago, Jronman said:21700 would make flex even bigger than the 9.0 which would seem like a bad idea considering it is already big enough. I think DeWALT should wait for solid state battery tech. If Makita is going 21700 then x2 may start outperforming Flexvolt. They are already pretty close in performance.
Only by like 5mm at most
Well in theory 3 mm higher and wider would be enough. Maybe the big flexvolt battery already has that 3mm spare inside the casing if DeWalt thought it trough.
Jronman wrote:
13 hours ago, Jronman said:all tools get 36v power? or is there 36v specific tools that can work in 18v mode if needed?
36v specific tools it seems. The battery can fit either 18v or 36v but you can’t fit an older 18v on the 36v tools I think I get out of the japanese
kornomaniac wrote:
26 minutes ago, kornomaniac said:36v specific tools it seems. The battery can fit either 18v or 36v but you can’t fit an older 18v on the 36v tools I think I get out of the japanese
so closer to flexvolt than x2 I guess
Linda exactly like flexvolt but then in ‘normal’ size battery with a Max of 36v.
Anyone have an idea of the flexvolt idea is patented in us/EU ?
Surely you can only patent the name and not the tech?
Sick.
Jronman wrote:
On 8/26/2017 at 11:10 AM, Jronman said:Most Makita tools have a gauge on the tool. Guess you have 2 ways to check battery life now.
Hitachi’s premium brushless tools have a two-bar gauge. Better than nothing but still not as helpful as a 3 or 4.
All manufacturers should use five bars, four green and one red. It’d cost nothing to implement and give far more accuracy on battery state.
Tug wrote:
44 minutes ago, Tug said:All manufacturers should use five bars, four green and one red. It’d cost nothing to implement and give far more accuracy on battery state.
would a readout of the battery percentage be possible?
Jronman wrote:
8 hours ago, Jronman said:would a readout of the battery percentage be possible?
Easily done, but far too expensive. Then there’s the issue of durability, most people I know are quite heavy handed with their kit, I can’t see screens on batteries lasting long.
Tug wrote:
On 8/29/2017 at 1:52 AM, Tug said:
Easily done, but far too expensive. Then there’s the issue of durability, most people I know are quite heavy handed with their kit, I can’t see screens on batteries lasting long.
could it just be made out of the same material as the fuel gauges are made of? That soft plastic stuff? Maybe it would have space for 3 digits like what you would see on a digital clock.
Jronman wrote:
7 hours ago, Jronman said:could it just be made out of the same material as the fuel gauges are made of? That soft plastic stuff? Maybe it would have space for 3 digits like what you would see on a digital clock.
I guess that’s possible, but they’re always going with the cheaper option. I think you’d need at least one manufacturer to start including that and then hopefully others would follow suit.
I’m really excited for this as I believe Hitachi’s as good an overall power tool manufacturer as anyone when you include their pneumatic tools and miter/table saws into their cordless mix (the Triple Hammer is the best cordless tool out there IMHO). This is like a hybrid of Makita’s X2 and DeWalt’s FlexVolt and will hopefully result in some fantastic new stuff from Team Green!
kornomaniac wrote:
On 8/26/2017 at 8:31 AM, kornomaniac said:Found something new online. Hitachi Presented a multi voltage battery in Japan much like the flexvolt.
Can be either a 18v/5amp battery or a 36v/2.5 amps.
A new impact driver and circular to benefit from the multivolt batteries in 36v modus.
Seems they are completly compatible with everything.
http://www.homemaking.jp/product_info.php?products_id=167033&osCsid=1a7f521fc2fbc6e167da0136d206cb05
The new tools include:
An impact driver that has 10%+ driving speed and longer run time compared to the the 18v Triple Hammer impact(with 6ah battery)
A 6.5″ circular saw with twice the cutting speed of their 18v brushless circular saw.
4″ and 5″ variable speed grinders with nearly twice the power of their 18v brushless grinders.
A 6.5″ sliding mitre saw.
More about the first multivolt tools here:
http://www.hitachi-koki.co.jp/powertools/pro/multivolt/
Tug wrote:
On 8/26/2017 at 4:21 PM, Tug said:Surely you can only patent the name and not the tech?
Likely patented the way of disengaging the 60v connection or the way of mechanically switching between voltages. I think they’d issue those patents but you’d likely not be able to patent differential voltage in a battery…but I’ve heard of more asinine patents getting through. It also is probably limited to the power tool category, so if there is a different industry that could benefit from the tech it should be free game.
BMack37 wrote:
5 hours ago, BMack37 said:
Likely patented the way of disengaging the 60v connection or the way of mechanically switching between voltages. I think they’d issue those patents but you’d likely not be able to patent differential voltage in a battery…but I’ve heard of more asinine patents getting through. It also is probably limited to the power tool category, so if there is a different industry that could benefit from the tech it should be free game.
SawStop is a good example.
Also a 6.5 in miter saw? Seems odd to not just go with 7.25. I have never seen a 6.5 miter before.
Where can I get them from
Hitachi’s so far ahead in the impact driver category it isn’t even funny. The Triple Hammer is already the best impact on the market and this one’s even more powerful/faster (and it’s still IP56 rated).
aabee wrote:
1 minute ago, aabee said:
Hitachi’s so far ahead in the impact driver category it isn’t even funny. The Triple Hammer is already the best impact on the market and this one’s even more powerful/faster (and it’s still IP56 rated).
There hasn’t been any extensive comparison between Hitachi’s tripple hammer impact and top models by Makita/DeWalt/hilti that I’m aware off.
In June toolboxbuzz did a very extensive impact driver comparison but Hitachi did not want to enter their driver in the comparison.
So your claim of ‘ so far ahead ‘ is based on…. ? Hitachi marketing?
The instagram reviewers ( with their limited testing, do not consider their quick video on thesame level as one of the big comparisons done by protocol reviews, toolboxbuzz or OZtooltalk ) put it somewhere at the same height as the Makita/DeWalt. Nothing special.
So rather interested what decent comparison/test/review I missed that shows the tripple hammer miles ahead of DeWalt/Makita/hilti that ‘ it isn’t even funny ‘
🙂
kornomaniac wrote:
Just now, kornomaniac said:
There hasn’t been any extensive comparison between Hitachi’s tripple hammer impact and top models by Makita/DeWalt/hilti that I’m aware off.
In June toolboxbuzz did a very extensive impact driver comparison but Hitachi did not want to enter their driver in the comparison.
So your claim of ‘ so far ahead ‘ is based on…. ? Hitachi marketing?
The instagram reviewers ( with their limited testing, do not consider their quick video on thesame level as one of the big comparisons done by protocol reviews, toolboxbuzz or OZtooltalk ) put it somewhere at the same height as the Makita/DeWalt. Nothing special.
So rather interested what decent comparison/test/review I missed that shows the tripple hammer miles ahead of DeWalt/Makita/hilti that ‘ it isn’t even funny ‘
🙂
I have 3 triple hammers and 3 td170 and I like the td170 better I have some videos on Instragram of the 2 head to head
Marketing wank is marketing wank.
Calling something 20v when it is 18v like everyone else = marketing wank. Triple hammer, octo hammer or deca hammer, it doesn’t matter. It produces torque.
Don’t be fooled by marketing gimmicks or made up terms, otherwise you will wind up with Bluetooth hacksaws and 18v chalk lines.
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kornomaniac wrote:
10 hours ago, kornomaniac said:
There hasn’t been any extensive comparison between Hitachi’s tripple hammer impact and top models by Makita/DeWalt/hilti that I’m aware off.
In June toolboxbuzz did a very extensive impact driver comparison but Hitachi did not want to enter their driver in the comparison.
So your claim of ‘ so far ahead ‘ is based on…. ? Hitachi marketing?
The instagram reviewers ( with their limited testing, do not consider their quick video on thesame level as one of the big comparisons done by protocol reviews, toolboxbuzz or OZtooltalk ) put it somewhere at the same height as the Makita/DeWalt. Nothing special.
So rather interested what decent comparison/test/review I missed that shows the tripple hammer miles ahead of DeWalt/Makita/hilti that ‘ it isn’t even funny ‘
🙂
The above video is Hitachi’s impact driver from 2 generations ago, which ranked first in the latest and greatest from DeWalt, Makita, and Milwaukee. Hitachi improved on the best and oztooltalk has also called it the best impact they’ve used.
I’ve personally owned and/or used the Gen 2 Milwaukee and DeWalt, Makita’s XDT12, Kobalt’s 24v and Surge. The Triple Hammer’s vibration is considerably less noticeable than the others and is the only IP56 rated tool of the whole lot. That’s the basis for my opinion and not “marketing.”
It also scored #1 in Real Tool Review’s best tool of 2016.
https://www.mightypowertools.com/best-impact-driver-hitachi-wh18dbdl2/
Rated best impact driver over Makita’s XDT12Z (which is my personal second-favorite impact; the Triple Hammer has greater torque and again, IP56 rated)
Stuart, the webmaster of Toolguyd who runs and reviews tools across all platforms and has done so for years, calls it the best impact he’s ever used: http://toolguyd.com/top-tool-picks-5/
Just a few examples here.
But what do I know; these other people must all be beguiled by Hitachi’s marketing too.
🙂
aabee wrote:
10 hours ago, aabee said:
The above video is Hitachi’s impact driver from 2 generations ago, which ranked first in the latest and greatest from DeWalt, Makita, and Milwaukee. Hitachi improved on the best and oztooltalk has also called it the best impact they’ve used.
I’ve personally owned and/or used the Gen 2 Milwaukee and DeWalt, Makita’s XDT12, Kobalt’s 24v and Surge. The Triple Hammer’s vibration is considerably less noticeable than the others and is the only IP56 rated tool of the whole lot. That’s the basis for my opinion and not “marketing.”
It also scored #1 in Real Tool Review’s best tool of 2016.
https://www.mightypowertools.com/best-impact-driver-hitachi-wh18dbdl2/
Rated best impact driver over Makita’s XDT12Z (which is my personal second-favorite impact; the Triple Hammer has greater torque and again, IP56 rated)
Stuart, the webmaster of Toolguyd who runs and reviews tools across all platforms and has done so for years, calls it the best impact he’s ever used: http://toolguyd.com/top-tool-picks-5/
Just a few examples here.
But what do I know; these other people must all be beguiled by Hitachi’s marketing too.
🙂
Hmm well i guess ill have to find a Hitachi store and try them out myself.
Still no extensive comparison video available it seems.
Real tool reviews and toolguyd are not really believable sourced 😛 I do not follow them anymore.
Real tool reviews has been caught with false information/ fanboying for the brands that send him tools before on the forums. Not a source of good information.
Toolguyd I stopped following because all his ‘ top 3 best impacts’ etc… Are only based on tools he personally used. He explained it to me myself. It’s not a top 3of all best impacts on the market. A personal top 3 of the impacts he used. So his comparisons are not extensive enough being limited to personal experience ( and thus being nothing more then personal opinions on limited selection of tools. Bigger then most people experience, but not representative as a whole ! )
The IP56 thing. In theory it’s excellent of course ! Yet the IP rated Hitachi was one of the first to crap out from water/dust in tools in action torture tests. Not that that was the most scientific test ever but it’s pretty much the only test/review we have on the IP rating that the Hitachi failed.
It’s a superb impact driver, I’m sure of that. But ‘ so far ahead that it’s funny’ is taking it Abit too far.
With abit of luck either toolboxbuzz, protoolreviews or OZtooltalk ( thrustworthy sources in my opinion ) will do another impact comparison 2018 and maybe even take the Hitachi multivolt on a ride !!!!!
joemontague wrote:
13 hours ago, joemontague said:I have 3 triple hammers and 3 td170 and I like the td170 better I have some videos on Instragram of the 2 head to head
Well is guess they’re both great impacts.
Why do you have 6 impacts ? 😛 lol
HiltiWpg wrote:
12 hours ago, HiltiWpg said:Marketing wank is marketing wank.
Calling something 20v when it is 18v like everyone else = marketing wank. Triple hammer, octo hammer or deca hammer, it doesn’t matter. It produces torque.
Don’t be fooled by marketing gimmicks or made up terms, otherwise you will wind up with Bluetooth hacksaws and 18v chalk lines.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed. Decent comparisons by thrustworthy sourced is what I believe.
The Hitachi are also IP56 rated yet the Hitachi was one of the first to crap out from water and dust on tools in action torture test. ( Not the most scientific but the only test I ever seen that tests water and dust on the tools )
I’m not really disputing that the Hitachi is the top impact driver because I believe it is but after seeing some of these video I got curious and looked up some youtube videos. There’s one video showing a dcf887 (1825ft/lbs) getting spanked by a the triple hammer. Then there’s another video with a dcf895 (1500ft/lbs) getting beat but not any worse than the 887. Now in my mind that doesn’t make sense because I know from personal experience that the 887 has another level from the 895.
kornomaniac wrote:
18 hours ago, kornomaniac said:Well is guess they’re both great impacts.
Why do you have 6 impacts ? 😛 lol
I have more than 6 lol
joemontague wrote:
Just now, joemontague said:I have more than 6 lol
Lol 😀
kornomaniac wrote:
1 minute ago, kornomaniac said:Lol 😀
But yes they are both dream but makita is more refined
I’ve tested them against each other in a small way (triple hammer and DCD887 putting bugel screws into pine) and found them to go toe-to-toe. sometimes Dewalt won, Hitachi won probably a little more often. It wasn’t super scientific (or like our proper comparisons).
@joemontague m8 you need to get atleast 3 Hitachi multivolt impact drivers !!!!! 😀
dwain wrote:
4 hours ago, dwain said:I’ve tested them against each other in a small way (triple hammer and DCD887 putting bugel screws into pine) and found them to go toe-to-toe. sometimes Dewalt won, Hitachi won probably a little more often. It wasn’t super scientific (or like our proper comparisons).
The differences between most high end tools are so small that most of the time you’ll hardly even notice it in real life 🙂 they’re all good tools !
kornomaniac wrote:
On 8/26/2017 at 3:41 PM, kornomaniac said:Linda exactly like flexvolt but then in ‘normal’ size battery with a Max of 36v.
Anyone have an idea of the flexvolt idea is patented in us/EU ?
This would be interesting to know more on
I very much doubt the tripple hammer is “best in class”. There’s just not enough evidence out there, only hype. One thing that shows, is that the Makita consistently finishes in the top 2, if not first place.
Here’s the link to the ToolBoxBuzz comparison which Hitachi declined to enter (as mentioned by @kornomaniac already).
http://www.toolboxbuzz.com/cordless-tools/impact-driver/impact-driver-head-to-head/
Hitachi needs to earn best in class, not just claim it 😉
I want to see Makita TD170 VS Hitachi Triple Hammer, then we can settle it.
Without having done a full comparison that includes it, I think it probably is best-in-class. BUT i haven’t used the DTD170, only the DTD148, so who knows.
One thing is for sure, their previous IP56 model WAS best in class for several years.
D W wrote:
On 12/09/2017 at 2:56 PM, D W said:I want to see Makita TD170 VS Hitachi Triple Hammer, then we can settle it.
Finally a video of them both compared. Only a single size screw is driven though. Dewalt beats them all.
I would’ve liked to see the regular milwaukee in there not just the surge
With impact drivers at least I think we’re at a point where most users can be completely unworried about these things. I got a brushed XDT-11, Makita’s bare-bones brushed model, and upgraded to the ZDT-12, their brushless 4-speed uberdriver. The specs on the 12 are insanely high in the “comparisotest”, “sausage slapability” metrics but I don’t expect to come across any practical situation where that ends up being the critical difference for getting the job done. What I actually bought it for was the extra control conferred by having all those speeds. Basically the bare-bones, nowhere-near-as-powerful brushed model was still too hard to modulate with the trigger alone and the thing would brutalize smaller screws I would need to work on with more precision. I put this uberpowerful model in either of the lower two speeds and I can modulate everything I need to do with ease. That to me is worth far more than 160lbft vs 145 or whatever.
D W wrote:
On 2/9/2018 at 7:21 PM, D W said:
Finally a video of them both compared. Only a single size screw is driven though. Dewalt beats them all.
I wasn’t initially planning to watch all these videos but it became an option while I was otherwise watching clearcoat dry, so…
I’m given to think there were some confounders going on with this particular video that could have thrown the test off. There are a lot of things that could be going on but Makita’s pulse driver getting those screws in while their own impact in particular could not suggests something funny going on. Inconsistency in the wood grain, something about the coefficient of friction between that wood to the screw surface, some sort of stiction-like property of the wood which could also change depending on where in the grain it’s going which somehow ends up being friendlier to the smooth torque pulse, or maybe the Makita impact was just defective or got screwed up from some previous work…who knows what really but that part in particular is a little hard for me to expect to be a routine result.
Moving on from that, something I do speculate as to a possible reason Hitachi may not be particularly warm to their newish triple-hammer doing these types of tests is the 3:2 impact speed ratio likely also entails a 2:3 ratio in “area under the curve” impact torque. In an oversimplified analogy, it would be like saying you get 50% more impacts per second but each impact is 2/3 as substantial. No magic here, just the physics of it means there’s no free ride, like physics usually does anywhere else.
If it works out as I’m speculating this could lead to a lot of “apples-to-oranges” type results much like pulse drivers but a little less obvious where the Hitachi would shine in lower-output tasks but then get blown-out in the torcher tests, and Hitachi maybe just wants to bow out of worrying about how these comparo-tests would evaluate that.
Funny thing about the Oz Tool Talk 2016 video, they actually named the Makita and Hitachi the co-winners of the test. With a perfect score being 25, the Makita earned all points outright while the Hitachi scored 23 points on its own and was then given 3 “bonus points” for the IP56 rating to reach 26 points. Personal opinion…3 points seems an arbitrary number and they didn’t give Makita any freebie points for whatever protections their proprietary “Extreme Protection Technology” design features entail. No accusation of gross bias and Makita didn’t need any freebie points to garner a perfect score anyway, but at the same time it isn’t a trivial level of subjectivity being thrown in there.
None of this is to say the Makita, the Hitachi, or anyone else is superior. What I’m actually saying is the results are close enough that any claims for any one product being lightyears ahead of anyone else is almost certain to prove overly-enthusiastic. I don’t remember which video it was anymore but one of them had a number of graphs where the top-3 performers were all within a few percent of each other and most of the rest of the field would be within fifteen. That’s just not going to be compelling enough for anyone to switch platforms over.
All these products are moving to brushless motors with high-flux neodymium and strontium magnets with efficiencies that can reach over 90%. They all use lithium batteries sourced from the usual suspects (Sony, Sanyo, etc etc). The better brands all have pretty good impact mechanisms that aren’t going to be giving up a lot in terms of lost energy.
Kinda bringing me back to my previous post, I still think the primary differentiator for better impact drivers going forward will be enhanced adjustability and control to modulate tasks that don’t require so much brute force.
It looks like Multivolt has OPE:
