Archived from the Tools In Action forum (Dewalt). This thread is read-only.
Wow, what a surprise! I thought I was being safe with my 36v line but nope! The new 2011 batteries have Samsung IFR18650-11P or -11Q cells.
I just took my 2011 battery apart and it’s 10s2p (20 cells inside!) config with 18650 cells. The good thing that they are still iron phosphate and they are also 1.1 Ah cells, which yields 2.2Ah battery, compared to A123’s 2.3 Ah battery. They are labelled as 79Wh batteries, confirming 79/36 = 2.2 Ah. That’s right, new battery has LOWER capacity.
0.5C charge rate for 11P hints that they are something like 10A cells and most likely have shitty cycle life (sub 800 cycles).
11P cells here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1434825
Specs:
http://www.samsungsdi.com/battery/cylindrical-IFR18650-11P.jsp
11Q cells, the only info on the net:
So, here we go, cheapen the batteries again.
I just went from avid fan and promoter to disgusted customer. They didn’t bother to change the model number which AFAIK breaks a bunch of regulations (UL/ULC for one!) and cheats the customer of some battery capacity. Good thing I have my stash of 12-some A123 based batteries which are still happily chugging away from 2006. I’m sure the next iteration of batteries will come those solar garden light 600 Mah NiCd cells, LOL.
Well, as a consumer I feel shat on by a big corporation. Those for you who work for dewalt, please pass it on that not all their customers are dumb and ignorant hammer swingers, and actually research tools before stocking the fleet with thousands of dollars of tools. My company is growing, and Milwakee with their Sanyo cells starts looking incredibly sexy.
Sad day for me today.
[External image (i.imgur.com), not copied]
Thank you for the thread….. I am looking at alternative 36v tools. They may cost more but with 3.8mah batteries I can see why.
I am truly upset at Black and Decker…. I mean Dewalt. This may however mean they will produce xrp 36v in the future.
$200 a battery then…
And I just bought a 36v impact and the sds drill with a total of 4 batteries. I cant believe this crap. I used to brag about the runtime and power of this line.
I’m sure this was done by some MBA dickheads from Stanley.
I find it odd that these have Samsung cells. Everything else from *DeWALT for 2011 has been converted to Sanyo cells. Was your 36v purchased in OH Canada?
* Meaning 12v Max, and 20v Max.
As soon as my ordered tools get here I will check the date codes and if they are newer I will pop them open.
This is truly dishonest. :-[
Well, everyone else has been doing it. Milwaukee changed the batteries 3 different times in the M line by my count, before they launched “RedLithium” which makes 4 changes. Ridgid, Ryobi, and Bosch have all made changes without any notice what-so-ever.
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
Well, everyone else has been doing it. Milwaukee changed the batteries 3 different times in the M line by my count, before they launched “RedLithium” which makes 4 changes. Ridgid, Ryobi, and Bosch have all made changes without any notice what-so-ever.
Yeah I understand everyone else has been doing it…. Lots of Idealists use this as an excuse. However Dewalt was already using the best batteries available. It was not as if they where looking for something to improve upon like the other companies mentioned.
I took pride in knowing that I was using Dewalt tools as I was under the impression that they as a company continued to do the same, that is took pride in manufacturing to the highest standards. I had no problem paying extra to a get a tool that was a step above the rest. To see the compromising of standards to make $20-30 a battery means they are now in it for the short term. Obviously the 36v batterys where lasting to long with the original a123 cells…….
I guess I can blame it on the economy
Well, Must admitt that I also think it is very bad if dewalt now uses battery cells with less performance and quality. However, no real test have been done that can confirm that the new batterypack is of much lesser quality and performance. Maybee they are just as good as the old A123 cells.
However, if Aprelia is right this is a pitty. I thought that most powertool makers tried to make better and better batterypack, not going the opposite direction.
But acording to Aprelia also the new cells are some kind of iron phosfate cells so maybee you can have as many cycles as on the A123 cells.
Madtech or Kjones might have something to add about this?
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
Well, everyone else has been doing it. Milwaukee changed the batteries 3 different times in the M line by my count, before they launched “RedLithium” which makes 4 changes. Ridgid, Ryobi, and Bosch have all made changes without any notice what-so-ever.
Every change the new cells had higher capacity and higher discharge current and cycle life – they IMPROVED batteries. This does not fall under US “consumer fraud” regulations. It might violate UL but not consumer protection laws. Dewalt on the other hand used shittier cells, that already smells like class action lawsuit.
wow, that sucks. i took pride in my tools knowing they were using the best battery technology available. and now to secretly switch cells to a lower quality is bullsh*t.
maybe dewalt wants users to be buying new batteries every year or two like the old crappy 18v nicads.
ok, so i had bought a few 36 volt batteries recently, and all were made in 2010. and what do you know, two of them have the samsung cells. when i had bought these, i had marked one of those two, since i thought it didnt have as much power as i thought it should. i then figured i’d see how the new batteries performed after a few charge cycles. well now i know why i thought that battery was weaker.
it seems dewalt changed cells somewhere between the 22nd and 30th week of 2010. you can also see that the top number format is now different on the batteries with the samsung cells.
i really want to hear what dewalt has to say about this.
What we need is much exposure of this to the public.
I have already started notifying all my fellow contractors as to what they are up to. I halted my purchase of the 36v jigsaw and cutoff tool until I can check the 4 batteries I ordered. If they are a123 than I know they can last me the life of the tool, if they are samsung or sanyo I will be shopping around.
This is already hurting sales. Is Dewalt listening yet? Probably not, but as soon as people catch wind that competitors are pulling away it will be over. Maybe I should go with Craftsman, I cant believe it… :'(
Framer, will you post up some additional information comparing battery runtime and power. Maybe do a few test’s and see if you really have less power using the Samsung cells, vs 123 cells. Maybe do some cross-cut’s with each battery and see which one does more cut’s than the other.
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
Framer, will you post up some additional information comparing battery runtime and power. Maybe do a few test’s and see if you really have less power using the Samsung cells, vs 123 cells. Maybe do some cross-cut’s with each battery and see which one does more cut’s than the other.
Excellent Idea….
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
Framer, will you post up some additional information comparing battery runtime and power. Maybe do a few test’s and see if you really have less power using the Samsung cells, vs 123 cells. Maybe do some cross-cut’s with each battery and see which one does more cut’s than the other.
sounds like a good idea. i’ll see what i can come up with.
Best you can do is charge them both at the same time and leave them on the chargers overnight.
Then take a 4×4 and a 3/4″ auger bit and drill repeatedly without letting go of the trigger. Let the bit pull itself into the wood, don’t push the drill down. Then note the number of holes for each battery. Repeat several times if possible to get an average.
Any testing done thus far?
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
Any testing done thus far?
I got batteries on the way. One newer a123 and 2 brand new straight off the line with whatever cells they have now. The last bunch tested no good and Dewalt took care of me. I should hopefully get them this next week.
been busy. maybe next week…DEWALTDUDE wrote:
Any testing done thus far?
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
Any testing done thus far?
Well so far so good I was able to get almost identical results with a 2011 production battery and a 2006 a123 celled battery that had been used a around a dozen times its whole life. I got 87 cuts with the a123 and I got 85 with the 2011 run which I assume is Sanyo. And to be fair I bound the sanyo battery cuts 3 times to the point that the blade was slipping, this amounts to tremendous current draw and I did not do this once with the a123 pack run.
I cut full depth passes through a full dimension 4×6 redwood. It had a little surface dirt and I used the 2011 battery last, this means it had a duller blade and required more effort to cut. I noticed halfway through cutting that the 2011 battery seemed to actually be picking up more grunt and then around the 80th cut I could notice slowdown, much like the a123 but more noticeable. Upon throwing them on the charger the a123 being the first battery was cooler and the second light on the charger came on quicker followed by the still warm 2011, which followed 2 1/2 minutes behind.
This test absolutely sucked as I tried to keep the saw running the whole time and close to 180 full dimension cuts with one hand take there toll…. :-\ I did not have a self feeding drill bit to do this test, I cant believe it. I guess I have just muscled all my bore holes. ;D
Some Dewalt .orn, safe for work.
So maybe all this wining about the change isn’t so bad after all? Only time will tell…. (Cycle Life)
I appreciate you doing those test’s! I know testing tools can be a pain!
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
So maybe all this wining about the change isn’t so bad after all? Only time will tell…. (Cycle Life)
I appreciate you doing those test’s! I know testing tools can be a pain!
Yes the batteries perform near identical, with the slow down occurring more pronounced with the Sanyo cells but they continue to operate. It is obvious that they provide less current at around 90% of their duty cycle, around 5% from me estimates. Not really an issue, but life cycle will certainly be interesting as the newer batteries appear to have a tougher time keeping up as voltage decreases.
Bottom line is I will not be abandoning my 36v and in fact I just bought the grinder and jigsaw after seeing the results of this test first hand…… ;D
Keep in mind these are 33v packs, so if it’s really 79 watt hours then it’s more than the previous packs.
golden valley const. wrote:
Keep in mind these are 33v packs, so if it’s really 79 watt hours then it’s more than the previous packs.
What the phuck are you talking about??? Both are 3.6 V *charged cells, A123 is 2.3 Ah and Samsung is 2.2 Ah (if that). A123 has higher energy density.
If a 6 year old battery (at this point shelf life takes it’s toll, not just cyclles) performs the same as a brand new one, then you have a problem. Another question is how good is the shelf life in those samsungs?
EDIT: 3.6v in fully charged
They are 3.3v nominal.
I always found it odd that their 18v batteries had 6 or 12 3.3v cells and 36v had 10. Just like milwaukee v28 is only 7 3.6v cells. So many complaints about 20v max, 12v max, but never with the higher voltage line.
golden valley const. wrote:
They are 3.3v nominal.
Wrong. Samsungs are 3.2v nominal and A123 is 3.3v nominal. A123 is still higher capacity.
So have you actually used these to build something? How do you know they are so much worse?
golden valley const. wrote:
So have you actually used these to build something? How do you know they are so much worse?
I am not going to try and answer for him….but…. I have the whole 36v line and many of each different battery type and they are still twice the tool that the 18v or 20v max line is.
I havent yet done any remodels yet to really push the new batteries but something will come up.
Charging cycles will surely be affected and it is a shame that a123 had so many faulty batteries and bms circuits. There was a confidentiality agreement between Dewalt and A123 and one of the Dewalt techs leaked the info that it was the faulty batteries and mass amounts of bms failures produced by a123 or sub contracted through a123 that caused all the grief for Dewalt and made them look elsewhere for the batteries…….. :-\
A123 produced some amazing cells but when you have that many in a pack, coupled with a bms design that could be improved upon, it was a recipe for failure. The have ironed out the bms and now have found a cell that has a lower failure rate. But at the cost of less charges and lower mah. :'(
Seems to me like 20 cells of just about any type will make a pretty powerful tool. I don’t own the 36v line but every year when I get a job that requires more power than I wish I needed (I prefer lighter work), I contemplate jumping into 36-volt again. I’ve never been concerned with cycle life, I know plumbers who use 10 full cycles a week, but I average about 100 per year so I’m more concerned with calendar life.
I figured I better follow up on this…. The new batteries absolutely suck. I have enough of them that it doesnt matter I just pop another one in place. I find that I am charging them twice as much as my old batteries that have nearly 5 years of use. I will just warranty them out every year, as I dont think that they will make it. What a shame leaving behind the a123 cells. I am sure it just wasnt cost effective to have batteries that last forever. If I had only bought a dozen of them back in the day.
i havent used mine in a while, and when i went to use some of the 36 volt tools, they acted funny with the newer cells. like low on power. not happy with them either.
burlguy wrote:
I figured I better follow up on this…. The new batteries absolutely suck. I have enough of them that it doesnt matter I just pop another one in place. I find that I am charging them twice as much as my old batteries that have nearly 5 years of use. I will just warranty them out every year, as I dont think that they will make it. What a shame leaving behind the a123 cells. I am sure it just wasnt cost effective to have batteries that last forever. If I had only bought a dozen of them back in the day.
A123Systems after 2 years of life
2.3 Ah capacity tests OK
internal cell resistance of 15 mohm to 33 mohm!
compromised power drill!
NICD forever!
regards
burlguy wrote:
I figured I better follow up on this…. The new batteries absolutely suck. I have enough of them that it doesnt matter I just pop another one in place. I find that I am charging them twice as much as my old batteries that have nearly 5 years of use. I will just warranty them out every year, as I dont think that they will make it. What a shame leaving behind the a123 cells. I am sure it just wasnt cost effective to have batteries that last forever. If I had only bought a dozen of them back in the day.
Its official my batteries didnt make it 50 charges(probably less than 20) and the new cells are giving me the 3 blinking lights after 16 months. I dont know what to do now. I have the full 36v volt line and this is a serious problem to me as I depended on them. I built one house with them and have 7 batteries so I alternated charging and usage. I checked Amazon review and it looks like they are all dying….. :'(
I hate to have to turn to another company. I took pride in having all black and yellow. :-\
2 year warranty on the batteries. 1-800-4-Dewalt or your local service center.
Might be about time to move to the current tools. 20v max 4.0 packs are almost identical real world capacity, and you’ll have more tools and development coming down the pike.
golden valley const. wrote:
Might be about time to move to the current tools. 20v max 4.0 packs are almost identical real world capacity, and you’ll have more tools and development coming down the pike.
I dont know if you have used the 36v tools but they are unmatched in torque and run time. The circular saw uses the full sized 7 1/4″ blade and I need this because I often work in full dimension lumber. It would cost me $3500 or so to ditch the tools that still work like new minus their battery issue, I guess I will have to consider it. Such a shame… :-\
36v is not going away, purely because of what you described. There are simply certain applications that require the superior runtime and power if the 36v line. I am sorry that you are having battery issues, but I can say definitively that the cells being used are still more than adequate of the application. Something else must be going on to cause hours to fail early. I deal with a number of huge contractor companies every day who have hundreds of 36v tools each, and problems with tools and batteries are practically non-existent.
Get your battery warranty replaced, and talk to the tech at the service center you go to to see if there is possibly something that you are doing that is causing them to die early.
Good luck!
Now with 20v Max 4.0Ah batteries, does the 36v 2.2Ah batteries still beat that in runtime?
I can’t speak to runtime in the whole line, but I knw the hammer does. Plus, the 36v has considerably more power than 18/20v tools. Now don’t get me wrong, 18/20v is the best power:weight:cost line for the far majority of users out there, but there will always be a small group who need the increased runtime and especially power of the 36v line.
kjones wrote:
36v is not going away, purely because of what you described. There are simply certain applications that require the superior runtime and power if the 36v line. I am sorry that you are having battery issues, but I can say definitively that the cells being used are still more than adequate of the application. Something else must be going on to cause hours to fail early. I deal with a number of huge contractor companies every day who have hundreds of 36v tools each, and problems with tools and batteries are practically non-existent.
Get your battery warranty replaced, and talk to the tech at the service center you go to to see if there is possibly something that you are doing that is causing them to die early.
Good luck!
Thank you telling me they will be supported for the years to come. There is deffinetly a cell issue, just head over to Amazon reviews and check the 36v battery reviews. The new replacement battery I recieved is much lighter than the rest. It will probably have even less run time. Oh well, maybe they will get so bad Dewalt will start a xrp 36v battery? I would be willing to pay for more run time.