Archived from the Tools In Action forum (Dewalt). This thread is read-only.
So far I’ve taken apart pretty much anything except new 20v Max stuff.
I suspect either 5s2p config with Sony VT or Sanyo or Samsung Q series. I’ve talked to a UK distributor and he stated the cells are not A123 for sure. That’s a major turnoff for me. It seems dewalt is trying to get competitive with Makita by cheapening the batteries. I can appreciate that, I’ve been selling tools for a while and most people could not care less about max discharge current or cycle life, they just want cheap batteries, no matter how bad they are. A123 is far, far superior to anything on the market today and we don’t have anything new coming for a while, except maybe tools based on ultracapacitors.
I won’t be surprised is Makita or Hilti flips on Dewalt and starts using A123 in something like 5s3p configuration, making 3.3Ah batteries with 200A+ discharge rates, creating monster torque tools.
So, that being said, anyone from UK care to open up the 20v max battery?
You are correct in that it is not an A123 battery. The current 18v batteries are still going to be offered for the foreseeable future (as long as there is still a market for them), and the 20v platform will be an additional line. I can’t talk about price point until it is officially launched, but you are correct so far on the battery systems.
The point is that the 20 volt system is not replacing the current 18 volt system, but rather adding another option for people who whose needs where not satisfied by the existing lines. This is honestly a great solution, because now all sides can be satisfied.
This should answer some of your questions regarding Stanley Black&Decker’s standing relationship with A123.
kjones wrote:
The point is that the 20 volt system is not replacing the current 18 volt system, but rather adding another option for people who whose needs where not satisfied by the existing lines. This is honestly a great solution, because now all sides can be satisfied.
Sorry, you sound like a corporate drone saying that. The only problem with pod batteries was fatter tool handles, they didn’t have to switch to Sony cells. There is no sides and never was, contractors still use pod style Makita tools that have much fatter handle and no one cares. There is nothing DC411 or DC380 with a slider battery can do that a pod-style can’t.
This was done to make batteries cheaper and nothing else. They missed the train by not educating user base on nanophosphate benefits. They could have exposed Milwaukee/Makita for promising 2000 cycles on manganese cells which is a blatant lie. Users win NOTHING with 3Ah battery that can only produce ~40A max, because when you drain it at high rate, the discharge becomes non-linear and in the end it will die FASTER than 2.3Ah A123-based battery – wait and see.
Some marketing genius decided to cheapen the tool to compete and the end result is crap batteries, and “20V” marking confirms this. In fact, phosphate batteries are 3.6v and not 4.2v nominal, so 5×3.6 = 18. So if they call the tools 20v (hint that they are 4.2v Manganese or Cobalt cells) and 1.5Ah cells, then I think they won’t even be based on Sony US18650SF/F cells and instead use red Sanyo cells or worse – Sony 18650VT cells which Makita/Bosch uses and which are absolute garbage.
The other reason they released the “20v max” is to save 2 dollars on a mosfet and microcontroller that’s in the pod battery stem.
I’m very disappointed with this decision and hope the 20v line turns out a huge fail like 24v Nicd and 28v LiFePO4 line was. They could have easily made adapters for older tools (it’s very easy to make one, 5 bucks in components + mold) from slider to pod, and the fact that they didn’t is proof that pod style is a dead end now and believing otherwise is just childish and irresponsible.
Milwaukee went thru 3 generations of cells and each step was an improvement, while Dewalt made a huge step back.
A123 makes prismatic cells and could have easily produced 3Ah pack that fits in a slider pack (and it would be a lot lighter than cylindrical-based packs) but Dewalt instead cheapened the tools. I’m also sure there will be a swift return to crappy Jacobs 500/700 series chucks too. Rohm chucks are ~$45 cost to them and just looking at $299 pricepoints, I have a feeling they will cheapen the chucks. The final nail in the coffin for me would be if they ditch Xenoy and go for nylon. I have yet to see what triggers and chuck collars are made out of of in new tools.
/rand mode off
It is easy to criticize without being technically informed, but then again, who’s to say your not on a phishing expedition…..
And I am far from a corporate drone…..
Aprelia wrote:
The point is that the 20 volt system is not replacing the current 18 volt system, but rather adding another option for people who whose needs where not satisfied by the existing lines. This is honestly a great solution, because now all sides can be satisfied.
Sorry, you sound like a corporate drone saying that. The only problem with pod batteries was fatter tool handles, they didn’t have to switch to Sony cells. There is no sides and never was, contractors still use pod style Makita tools that have much fatter handle and no one cares. There is nothing DC411 or DC380 with a slider battery can do that a pod-style can’t.
This was done to make batteries cheaper and nothing else. They missed the train by not educating user base on nanophosphate benefits. They could have exposed Milwaukee/Makita for promising 2000 cycles on manganese cells which is a blatant lie. Users win NOTHING with 3Ah battery that can only produce ~40A max, because when you drain it at high rate, the discharge becomes non-linear and in the end it will die FASTER than 2.3Ah A123-based battery – wait and see.
Some marketing genius decided to cheapen the tool to compete and the end result is crap batteries, and “20V” marking confirms this. In fact, phosphate batteries are 3.6v and not 4.2v nominal, so 5×3.6 = 18. So if they call the tools 20v (hint that they are 4.2v Manganese or Cobalt cells) and 1.5Ah cells, then I think they won’t even be based on Sony US18650SF/F cells and instead use red Sanyo cells or worse – Sony 18650VT cells which Makita/Bosch uses and which are absolute garbage.
The other reason they released the “20v max” is to save 2 dollars on a mosfet and microcontroller that’s in the pod battery stem.
I’m very disappointed with this decision and hope the 20v line turns out a huge fail like 24v Nicd and 28v LiFePO4 line was. They could have easily made adapters for older tools (it’s very easy to make one, 5 bucks in components + mold) from slider to pod, and the fact that they didn’t is proof that pod style is a dead end now and believing otherwise is just childish and irresponsible.
Milwaukee went thru 3 generations of cells and each step was an improvement, while Dewalt made a huge step back.
A123 makes prismatic cells and could have easily produced 3Ah pack that fits in a slider pack (and it would be a lot lighter than cylindrical-based packs) but Dewalt instead cheapened the tools. I’m also sure there will be a swift return to crappy Jacobs 500/700 series chucks too. Rohm chucks are ~$45 cost to them and just looking at $299 pricepoints, I have a feeling they will cheapen the chucks. The final nail in the coffin for me would be if they ditch Xenoy and go for nylon. I have yet to see what triggers and chuck collars are made out of of in new tools.
/rand mode off
You are completely missing the point here. You obviously know about battery chemistries, but you have a clear and complete misunderstanding of MARKET WIDE trends. While in your opinion a pod style battery works great (I agree with you, and will continue to use my 18v tools), there is a segment of the cordless tool market (20 to 30% in the US) that prefer the ergonomics available through a slide pack. Whether you choose to believe the truth that 18v is here to stay, and that 20v slide pack is an ADDITIONAL option or not does not really matter to me, but do not try to propagate your misinformation if you do not care to learn the facts first. DeWALT is not abandoning the 18v line, they are not going to stop investing in it, and they are not going to do anything else to slow it’s growth so long as it is still a seller. the 20v line is quite simply a new option to go after those who do not like the current DeWALT style.
You are correct that the A123 battery is an excellent chemistry, and it is still used in some of the batteries (36v for example), but there is nothing wrong with the Sony battery either. Look market wide and try to sell a customer a battery that costs significantly more (A123 vs. Sony), with few benefits. The Sony cell that is used in the DeWALT batteries is still the best on the market, and the cycle life will last longer than anyone else (as you already pointed out, which is due in large part to amp hour).
The 20v actually has a more expensive electronics package in it, it is just moved to the trigger, where it is able to monitor more of the entire tool rather than only the battery (again, going after the users in the market who prefer this type of control), so it has nothing to do with overall cost of production. The 20v will use a mix of the Jacobs and Rohm chucks, same as the current 18v line. Now if you want to say that the 20v line doesn’t sound like it is “for you”, than that is completely understandable, so you can stick with the 18v line. The 20v is just another option that appeals to a different segment of the market.
You clearly did not understand what I said. I said, that the BAD thing about pod style pack is a resulting fat handle. I totally agree that slide pack is much better and there is a market for it. What I don’t agree with is the choice of cells. I’ve been selling and researching tools for years, I’m in constant contact with local Makita, Dewalt and Milwaukee service centers and many, many suppliers. I had many tools in my possession long before they were announced ANYWHERE. I had every single tool Makita and Dewalt ever made for 18v. I still have a 18v biscuit jointer that’s a huge rarity now. I still own full 36v line. I know PRECISELY what’s happening on the market. I know EXACTLY how much the electronics cost and what they actually do (I’m an electronics tech), please do not insult my intelligence. I did in-depth tool reviews long, long before this forum even existed (ask the owner). I played with Senco fusion guns months before any online magazine wrote about them, go to youtube and look up FN55AX – I posted a video months before it was available anywhere.
Now let’s look at some prices.
First of all, costs:
A123 cell – $6-$8
Sony LiFePO4 – $5-6
Sanyo or Sony KONION $3-5/cell.
Microcontroller, passive components and mosfet are $7-8 MAX. That means moving them to the handle saves approx 7% of battery cost. If you think the micro inside the battery does some extremely complex computation you are wrong. It’s very primitive. The “monitoring” you hear about is a charge cycle counter that writes to EEPROM, a thermistor and *maybe* a current sensor, and a cell balancer. There is absolutely nothing magic about old or new BMS. In fact, phosphate batteries are more picky than cobalt/manganese cells, they need more complex circuitry. Some Sony and Samsung cells are self-balancing, which cheapens the BMS a lot.
As you already know, new 20v max are NOT iron phosphate. That means that they will automatically be 600-800 cycle cells (regardless who makes them). A123 can produce 70A/cell, Sony iron phosphate can produce 20A/cell, regular Sonys or red Sanyo can only do 20A or less.
So, by pretty much halving the battery costs, we have:
1. Less than HALF the cycle life.
2. 60% less power produced by the battery – more stalls.
3. 30% less shelf life due to chemistry.
4. Internal resistance increase with age (iron phosphate – opposite) – lower torque with battery age.
5. Poor performance in extreme hot weather.
6. Reduced safety (yep, those LiCo/LiMn cells burn like hell if damaged)
7. 40% capacity increase (yet to be seen in action).
My point is, Dewalt didn’t just make a new line to fill a market niche. They deliberately lowered battery quality (and price) to better compete with others. I think that the whole “MAX” thing is wankery, I hear all kinds of theories why the new line wasn’t left as “18v” but it’s all bull, they call it 18v in EU and nobody died. They could have stayed with A123 or *at least* LiFePO4 Sony cells and moved BMS into the tool handle, but instead they chose crappy cells. They could have came up with prismatic cells or even 3.3Ah in 5s3p configuration but no, it all came down to bottom line.
PS: Just a clarification: Yes, Sony LiFePO4 batteries are best on the market but they will *not* be used in 20v MAX line. Compared to them, any other brand cells are complete crap when it comes to specs, even Sanyos or Samsung INR Q series.
Madtec wrote:
It is easy to criticize without being technically informed, but then again, who’s to say your not on a phishing expedition…..
And I am far from a corporate drone…..
Me, not being “technically informed”? Hahaha. Please read my blog here, then come back http://toolhacker.com/2010/01/bosch-dewalt-makita-milwaukee-ryobi-ridgid-hilti-battery-specs/
I also never called you a corporate drone, I addressed kjones. I don’t think you know what “phishing” means. My other account on this forum is Wartex and I’ve been a member from pretty much day one on this forum, and started tool reviews long before this forum existed. Ask JC/Paul whatever his name is.
I think that you still misunderstand me, as well as the point of the 20v. line. I will not waste any more time arguing with you, as this is obviously a pointless discussion because you have your mind made up. I never questioned your knowledge of battery/tech understanding (in fact I pointed out that you obviously knew your stuff). What I am talking about is that you don’t get that the 20v is going after the niche that the other competitors on the market have (Milwaukee and Makita mostly), including price point.
So I am going to stop writing on this topic. I once again want to say that I am not questioning your intelligence, just that you are making broad claims based on your personal feelings, instead of looking at the market as a whole, what each niche is looking for, and which of those are big enough to go after.
As far as the “20v” name, I don’t really have an opinion. I know why we are told that we went with the 20v name, and from what I have seen in the field with users freaking out about another 18v platform, I understand why they would call it 20v. If there are other reasons, I don’t really know or care, because what does it really matter?
First of all, costs:A123 cell – $6-$8
Sony LiFePO4 – $5-6
Sanyo or Sony KONION $3-5/cell.
Microcontroller, passive components and mosfet are $7-8 MAX. That means moving them to the handle saves approx 7% of battery cost. If you think the micro inside the battery does some extremely complex computation you are wrong. It’s very primitive. The “monitoring” you hear about is a charge cycle counter that writes to EEPROM, a thermistor and *maybe* a current sensor, and a cell balancer. There is absolutely nothing magic about old or new BMS. In fact, phosphate batteries are more picky than cobalt/manganese cells, they need more complex circuitry. Some Sony and Samsung cells are self-balancing, which cheapens the BMS a lot.
As you already know, new 20v max are NOT iron phosphate. That means that they will automatically be 600-800 cycle cells (regardless who makes them). A123 can produce 70A/cell, Sony iron phosphate can produce 20A/cell, regular Sonys or red Sanyo can only do 20A or less.
So, by pretty much halving the battery costs, we have:
1. Less than HALF the cycle life.
2. 60% less power produced by the battery – more stalls.
3. 30% less shelf life due to chemistry.
4. Internal resistance increase with age (iron phosphate – opposite) – lower torque with battery age.
5. Poor performance in extreme hot weather.
6. Reduced safety (yep, those LiCo/LiMn cells burn like hell if damaged)
7. 40% capacity increase (yet to be seen in action).
My point is, Dewalt didn’t just make a new line to fill a market niche. They deliberately lowered battery quality (and price) to better compete with others. I think that the whole “MAX” thing is wankery, I hear all kinds of theories why the new line wasn’t left as “18v” but it’s all bull, they call it 18v in EU and nobody died. They could have stayed with A123 or *at least* LiFePO4 Sony cells and moved BMS into the tool handle, but instead they chose crappy cells. They could have came up with prismatic cells or even 3.3Ah in 5s3p configuration but no, it all came down to bottom line.
PS: Just a clarification: Yes, Sony LiFePO4 batteries are best on the market but they will *not* be used in 20v MAX line. Compared to them, any other brand cells are complete crap when it comes to specs, even Sanyos or Samsung INR Q series.
Aprelia wrote:
You clearly did not understand what I said. I said, that the BAD thing about pod style pack is a resulting fat handle. I totally agree that slide pack is much better and there is a market for it. What I don’t agree with is the choice of cells. I’ve been selling and researching tools for years, I’m in constant contact with local Makita, Dewalt and Milwaukee service centers and many, many suppliers. I had many tools in my possession long before they were announced ANYWHERE. I had every single tool Makita and Dewalt ever made for 18v. I still have a 18v biscuit jointer that’s a huge rarity now. I still own full 36v line. I know PRECISELY what’s happening on the market. I know EXACTLY how much the electronics cost and what they actually do (I’m an electronics tech), please do not insult my intelligence. I did in-depth tool reviews long, long before this forum even existed (ask the owner). I played with Senco fusion guns months before any online magazine wrote about them, go to youtube and look up FN55AX – I posted a video months before it was available anywhere.
Again, there is a difference in the level of information that is being thrown from one end to the other, you may have played with a lot of products way before it hits the market but if you are not involved in the initial research and development then the information is just second hand. First of all i am not here to impress anyone on my job or what i do; clearly i am an employee so i may know a little more inside information that do not get shared with local service centers or reps and i am not about to spill any information that i feel is privileged. That being said let’s evaluate what is being said and i will try to answer any technical information that is needed.
Now let’s look at some prices.
First of all, costs:
A123 cell – $6-$8
Sony LiFePO4 – $5-6
Sanyo or Sony KONION $3-5/cell.
What are these per cell price or retail? If so, any battery would cost 3x the amount
Microcontroller, passive components and mosfet are $7-8 MAX. That means moving them to the handle saves approx 7% of battery cost. If you think the micro inside the battery does some extremely complex computation you are wrong. It’s very primitive. The “monitoring” you hear about is a charge cycle counter that writes to EEPROM, a thermistor and *maybe* a current sensor, and a cell balancer. There is absolutely nothing magic about old or new BMS. In fact, phosphate batteries are more picky than cobalt/manganese cells, they need more complex circuitry. Some Sony and Samsung cells are self-balancing, which cheapens the BMS a lot.
Again, are these retail prices you are quoting? Not even digikey, allied or any other electronics distributor sells a component for this much. A micro controller does a lot more than you think depending on the software and or hex/source code that is programmed into it and the “monitoring” you speak off, please….. with early versions of A123 phosphate cells, balancing was critical for run time and cycle life, a cell cycle is based on a cell (i will use A123 as and example) being fully charged and discharged under a typical 10A load, so a 3.6v lithium cell can only discharge to a recommended 1.5v. With a “micro” you can limit the amount of current and monitor the cell cycle, and internal heat so you do not go under the threshold, if you do, you risk diminishing the cycle life of the cell eg. if you drive your car low oil or coolant the engine will not last long. Fact, makita would let the cells discharged way pass this threshold and would not shut off during high cell temp; they just recently added temperature to their tool to “monitor” cells, so having a micro is not as primitive as you think and if so, why was the time and energy to add it in there the first place.
Also, it is cobalt oxide and manganese that is more temperamental than phosphate. With early versions of oxide cells, they tend to run extremely hot and can cause internal short and thermal runaway, remember the big recall by milwaukee a few years back? Phosphates are more forgiving but NiCd is still the best as far as rugged use
As you already know, new 20v max are NOT iron phosphate. That means that they will automatically be 600-800 cycle cells (regardless who makes them). A123 can produce 70A/cell, Sony iron phosphate can produce 20A/cell, regular Sonys or red Sanyo can only do 20A or less.
Unless you have done any cell level testing this is not the whole story, this 600-800 cycle life is under extreme 30-40A discharge. The initial problem with A123 26650 cells for example, is they would self discharge at a higher rate making the cycle life even worst.
So, by pretty much halving the battery costs, we have:
1. Less than HALF the cycle life.
2. 60% less power produced by the battery – more stalls.
3. 30% less shelf life due to chemistry.
4. Internal resistance increase with age (iron phosphate – opposite) – lower torque with battery age.
5. Poor performance in extreme hot weather.
6. Reduced safety (yep, those LiCo/LiMn cells burn like hell if damaged)
7. 40% capacity increase (yet to be seen in action).
My point is, Dewalt didn’t just make a new line to fill a market niche. They deliberately lowered battery quality (and price) to better compete with others. I think that the whole “MAX” thing is wankery, I hear all kinds of theories why the new line wasn’t left as “18v” but it’s all bull, they call it 18v in EU and nobody died. They could have stayed with A123 or *at least* LiFePO4 Sony cells and moved BMS into the tool handle, but instead they chose crappy cells. They could have came up with prismatic cells or even 3.3Ah in 5s3p configuration but no, it all came down to bottom line.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but i have tested A123 1.3ah cells that did not make in the high power tools industry; it was great out the box but fell flat and was out performed by the Sony 1.1ah cell, so clearly your level of internal cell and testing is not up to par. With the whole 20v Max* brand, it is just what the no load voltage is measured, in EUR, you have to market at the measured voltage under nominal load which is 18v. Sony, Samsung and all the other cell manufactures have different grades of cells, some performs better than others, so you have a variety of what model cell and performance you desire and it’s the power tool manufactures who use the cells to their advantage. Do you think they would not spend millions of dollars on cell development just to be second rate?
PS: Just a clarification: Yes, Sony LiFePO4 batteries are best on the market but they will *not* be used in 20v MAX line. Compared to them, any other brand cells are complete crap when it comes to specs, even Sanyos or Samsung INR Q series.
First you glorify A123 and now your saying Sony is the best and the others are crap. I think you need to do a little more research because you are clearly not suited for cell resource. Oh and PS. Sony has a 3.0ah cell, but will it ever be suited for power tools? Well, lets see if any primitive micro controller can handle that.
Aprelia wrote:
It is easy to criticize without being technically informed, but then again, who’s to say your not on a phishing expedition…..
And I am far from a corporate drone…..
Me, not being “technically informed”? Hahaha. Please read my blog here, then come back http://toolhacker.com/2010/01/bosch-dewalt-makita-milwaukee-ryobi-ridgid-hilti-battery-specs/
I also never called you a corporate drone, I addressed kjones. I don’t think you know what “phishing” means. My other account on this forum is Wartex and I’ve been a member from pretty much day one on this forum, and started tool reviews long before this forum existed. Ask JC/Paul whatever his name is.
I am not going to waste my time on any opinionated articles that was copied and paste for you to call yourself and expert…….blogs are like viruses, you can get infected by one from a simple download. First get your article published by a real magazine like Popular Mechanics and then i am all ears.
Madtec wrote:
First you glorify A123 and now your saying Sony is the best and the others are crap. I think you need to do a little more research because you are clearly not suited for cell resource. Oh and PS. Sony has a 3.0ah cell, but will it ever be suited for power tools? Well, lets see if any primitive micro controller can handle that.
LMAO, it’s like you read only half of my post and go on blabbering your own agenda. I said Sony phosphate is 2nd best after A123, meaning the cheapest “best” alternative to manganese/cobalt. You have no posted research whatsoever, and you call me out, lol!
so a 3.6v lithium cell can only discharge to a recommended 1.5v.
AHAHAH, the lowest acceptable voltage for cobalt/Mn is 2.4-2.8v. At 1.5 your cell will be a total brick. You clearly demonstrated you are a charlatan and HAVE NO IDEA what you are talking about. Read this before you embarass yourself even more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Prolonging_battery_pack_life
software and or hex/source code that is programmed into it
HEX code? BAHAHAHA! ;D It’s like you are five years old and got ahold of your dad’s electronics catalog. It’s called “firmware”, let me help you with that.
BTW the blog is all typed out by me, not copied from anywhere. Guys who are battery pros on RCgroups and endless-sphere linked to my page and copied my stuff because they found it useful.
Dude, just stop. I have a full blown lab where I test them. You have a low-end, low paid job at Dewalt and that doesn’t make you an expert, you are not anywhere close to R&D and you are total noob in electronics. I’m saving this entire page in case it gets deleted and I will post it on candlepowerforums, rcgroups, endless-sphere and ridgid just to show them what a tool you are. Thank you, I haven’t laughed like that in a long time.
PS: HEX code in the PIC. Ooooooooooooooo! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ::)
Dude, just stop. I beg you.
APRELIA, DRC WARTEX, DRC-WARTEX, JOOMLA…… I’m not really sure why you started posting on here again? Seeing you on here has not been a refreshing memory. I think this forum can benefit from collaborative knowledge, not a fireball of bravado.
Madtec is simply saying, you are a self-proclaimed expert. You have no real documented history that proves your anything but a self-absorbed prick.
If you want people to listen to you, jamming information down their throat and talking down to people is not the best way. You catch more bee’s with honey…. yadda yadda yaddaa….
Again, I think this forum can benefit from your knowledge and personal experience’s if you could just get that information out in a appropriate, non-confrontational manner.
Aprelia wrote:
First you glorify A123 and now your saying Sony is the best and the others are crap. I think you need to do a little more research because you are clearly not suited for cell resource. Oh and PS. Sony has a 3.0ah cell, but will it ever be suited for power tools? Well, lets see if any primitive micro controller can handle that.
LMAO, it’s like you read only half of my post and go on blabbering your own agenda. I said Sony phosphate is 2nd best after A123, meaning the cheapest “best” alternative to manganese/cobalt. You have no posted research whatsoever, and you call me out, lol!
Your post is just full of garbage and that shows, and there you again acting like you know something when clearly that is not the case, Phosphates are safer than oxides and are more expensive, oxides on the other hand can produce higher capacity but are more cost effective. And as far as my agenda is concern, is to counter the flux of shit that out coming out of your mouth.
so a 3.6v lithium cell can only discharge to a recommended 1.5v.
AHAHAH, the lowest acceptable voltage for cobalt/Mn is 2.4-2.8v. At 1.5 your cell will be a total brick. You clearly demonstrated you are a charlatan and HAVE NO IDEA what you are talking about. Read this before you embarass yourself even more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Prolonging_battery_pack_life
Again, until you do cell level testing with discharge and overcharge cycles your still have no idea what you are talking about, just keep up with your copy and paste of various links
software and or hex/source code that is programmed into itHEX code? BAHAHAHA! ;D It’s like you are five years old and got ahold of your dad’s electronics catalog. It’s called “firmware”, let me help you with that.
BTW the blog is all typed out by me, not copied from anywhere. Guys who are battery pros on RCgroups and endless-sphere linked to my page and copied my stuff because they found it useful.
Dude, just stop. I have a full blown lab where I test them. You have a low-end, low paid job at Dewalt and that doesn’t make you an expert, you are not anywhere close to R&D and you are total noob in electronics. I’m saving this entire page in case it gets deleted and I will post it on candlepowerforums, rcgroups, endless-sphere and ridgid just to show them what a tool you are. Thank you, I haven’t laughed like that in a long time.
PS: HEX code in the PIC. Ooooooooooooooo! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ::)
Dude, just stop. I beg you.
Where did you get your lab, toys R us? And now the copying and pasting begins, go ahead dumb ass, i am done with you childish antics
I can’t believe this guy just cited “wikipedia”! enough said. Anyawy, I’m done with this.
Madtec, you should send him a picture of your lab and tell him what you do for Dewalt. That may shut him up ;D
Nah, not going to stoop to his immature level, my 2 yr old daughter has more sense than he does
I heard from a close source that the DeWALT 20v Max batteries have mini Flux Capacitors in them!
Ohhh Dr. Brown, your a funny guy! ;D
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
APRELIA, DRC WARTEX, DRC-WARTEX, JOOMLA…… I’m not really sure why you started posting on here again? Seeing you on here has not been a refreshing memory. I think this forum can benefit from collaborative knowledge, not a fireball of bravado.
I regged a new account because old ones were insta-banned after a single wrong CAPTCHA entry, whoever implemented that half-assed aggressive antispam should be hanged. You have no idea how many legitimate users can’t register due to retarded antibot script.
Madtec is simply saying, you are a self-proclaimed expert. You have no real documented history that proves your anything but a self-absorbed prick.
I couldn’t care less what a random guy on the internet thinks of me, I don’t have to prove anything to anyone. I just expressed my opinion that new batteries are going to blow. If he doesn’t like it, he can go pound sand.
If you want people to listen to you, jamming information down their throat and talking down to people is not the best way. You catch more bee’s with honey…. yadda yadda yaddaa….
I was just bitching about the decision to ditch nanophosphate. It’s partially A123s fault because B&D is not the primary account any more and I bet the prices on cells went up for them. Again, I don’t give a shit about madtec’s opinion of me or my statements.
Again, I think this forum can benefit from your knowledge and personal experience’s if you could just get that information out in a appropriate, non-confrontational manner.
Again, I was just venting because I like their tools and hate when manufacturers lower the quality of an established product. The fact that madtec and kjones work for D automatically makes their counterarguments biased. Also, by no means I’m an “electronics genius”, but I’m an electronics tech and have dealt with electronics since I was 7, most of the stuff kjones said is factually wrong and some is just plain retarded, and no amount of references will prove him otherwise because he already accused me of “copy pasting links” and other stuff. Maybe we can start with not attacking people who happen NOT to work for Dewalt and be a little bit more skeptic and receptive of criticism instead of reducing the counterargument to personal insults. How about that?
PS: I’d love to see Madtec’s lab.
Phosphates are safer than oxides and are more expensive, oxides on the other hand can produce higher capacity but are more cost effective.
PPS: Madtec, I think you are trolling me because you keep repeating what I already said. YES, phosphates are safer, I said that in my 2nd big post. Yes, non-phosphates have higher capacity, I said that too. YES, they are cheaper but have lower discharge current. I have said that too. Stop trolling. Go design better battery instead. 😉
This site was attacked non-stop from random bupkist IP’s from Eastern Europe, Asia, and Africa until that anti-spam-bot software was put in place. We got 300+ hit’s from random China IP’s in one single day.
Nobody cares what anyone thinks online. However, those same people do find this site of some use. Pissing matches are a turn off and benefit no one!
I’m personally not thrilled about ditching A123 either, but the market speaks. You said it yourself, people want cheap batteries, and could care less about anything else. The market didn’t want 24v NiCd’s, nor did it care for 28v, nor did it care for 14.4v in the USA. These are dying products much like vinyl records, Blockbuster, Newspapers, etc….. Manufactures found solutions that the market asked for. I would not discard the 20v max batteries until the hit the market and are put to the real test. DeWALT has a lot at stake, and I don’t think they would throw everything to the wind.
I know your a cheerleader for DeWALT, you and I have a history. I know your personality, and I understand your eccentric personality (no offense). I get it, and understand your perspective. Most people don’t. I’m simply asking you to tone it down a bit, and explain yourself in a way that comes across in a non-confrontational manner. Explain your test’s and results for people to judge. Don’t throw it down like it’s directly from god, and you couldn’t possibly be wrong.
kjones and Madtec would love to hear your opposition if it came out as…. Hey guy’s did my own testing and here is what I discovered. What do you guy’s think, any thoughts, arguments, I’d love to discuss these matters in detail.
I feel like I’m beating a dead horse……
Again, I was just venting because I like their tools and hate when manufacturers lower the quality of an established product. The fact that madtec and kjones work for D automatically makes their counterarguments biased. Also, by no means I’m an “electronics genius”, but I’m an electronics tech and have dealt with electronics since I was 7, most of the stuff kjones said is factually wrong and some is just plain retarded, and no amount of references will prove him otherwise because he already accused me of “copy pasting links” and other stuff. Maybe we can start with not attacking people who happen NOT to work for Dewalt and be a little bit more skeptic and receptive of criticism instead of reducing the counterargument to personal insults. How about that?
You should probably go back and re-read my posts, because I was very careful not to make personal accusations at you, nor did I once refer to “copy and pasting”. In fact I said that it seems you know quite a bit about battery technology, just that you do not have a clear picture of the 20v line, or its intended purpose. I don’t know what I said that you could call “retarded” or “factually wrong”, as all I talked about where general tech points and marketing strategy. i have no problem with unbiased conversations, but those conversations have to go more than just one way. You can’t say whatever you want and not have people respond! Anyway, I am quite literally finished wasting my time with this post, and probably this blog. If this site can return to the way it was when people where friendly and professional, I may start to spend some time on here again, but if it continues down this path, you can have it all to yourself. I have better things to do with my time than to argue with a faceless screen. At the end of the day, we are talking about power tools, not curing cancer; this should be fun and not personal. Good luck to you though, in whatever it is that you do.
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
I feel like I’m beating a dead horse……
No you aren’t. I’ll be more considerate next time.
I also hope kjones and madtec back off a bit.
kjones wrote:
You should probably go back and re-read my posts, because I was very careful not to make personal accusations at you, nor did I once refer to “copy and pasting”. In fact I said that it seems you know quite a bit about battery technology, just that you do not have a clear picture of the 20v line, or its intended purpose. I don’t know what I said that you could call “retarded” or “factually wrong”, as all I talked about where general tech points and marketing strategy. i have no problem with unbiased conversations, but those conversations have to go more than just one way. You can’t say whatever you want and not have people respond! Anyway, I am quite literally finished wasting my time with this post, and probably this blog. If this site can return to the way it was when people where friendly and professional, I may start to spend some time on here again, but if it continues down this path, you can have it all to yourself. I have better things to do with my time than to argue with a faceless screen. At the end of the day, we are talking about power tools, not curing cancer; this should be fun and not personal. Good luck to you though, in whatever it is that you do.
Lets just back up a bit and start from the scratch. I was in a shit mood yesterday and felt a bit righteous, I know I came off very blunt. My criticism is directed at the company and not you. I know what you do for Dewalt and (this is just my opinion) you are not an electronics engineer/repair tech and your knowledge of electronics is far from mine (just an observation, again, I might be wrong). On the other hand, if you tell us more about what you actually do at work, provided you don’t violate your NDA, I think we will all benefit from it. I went thru all of your posts yesterday (all 18 pages of them) and found some very interesting (but scarce) information.
PS: Wife is going to UK, I asked her to bring a battery so I can crack it open and post pics here.
Aprelia wrote:
I feel like I’m beating a dead horse……
No you aren’t. I’ll be more considerate next time.
I also hope kjones and madtec back off a bit.
Fantastic, then I will also apologize for being a little harsh. Can’t wait to see your finding’s on the new 20v max. I’be been very curious to see what’s being used, and the electronics associated with the tools. I hope your not sending your wife just for a battery….. ;D
interesting thread here. keep up the excitement 😉
I can ask one of my friends if it is ok for him if I open up his battery. He bought a DCD780 with 3.0 A battery a couple of weeks ago after I suggested that tool to him. But not sure if he will like it or not, if it was my drill I would have opened it right now to post some pics. However, I have used the drill and it is a very nice product with a lot of very nice fetures like the magnetic bitholder with space for 2 bits.
Personally I will not invest in the new xr range just because I´ve drill, concrete hammer in the old line and they serve me very well day in and day out.
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
then will also apologize for being a little harsh
err… what does that mean?
Should be a I in there….. I will apologize for being harsh….
Bingobelle wrote:
I can ask one of my friends if it is ok for him if I open up his battery. He bought a DCD780 with 3.0 A battery a couple of weeks ago after I suggested that tool to him.
Please do, it would be awesome if he posts the picture of the cells here.
First off, Hello. I am a long time Dewalt user and bought the 36v combo kit back in 2006-7. It has come to my understanding that the 36v batteries being made as of last year are no longer using a123 cells. They are a “aa” sized sanyo battery with 300mah less.
The big question is why? Cheaper, yes. Weighs more, yes(when both packs are weighed not individual cells).
I understand profit margins, but why would Black and Decker decide to cheapen and lessen the quality of a flagship line. Is there any way to influence corporate that this is the wrong thing to do?
The rc groups have already done the testing for me and I was in the market to replace my batteries. I guess rather than buying the new cheaper quality batteries I should send my 36v off to be rebuilt at less cost than a new battery.
Can someone give me some insight as to why they have made this choice? I dont want to give up on my 36v tools at this time, matter of fact I just purchased the 36 sds drill and I may just send it back, and I bought 2 extra batteries with it. This really makes me upset.
And Dewalt kept the same part number with no designation that they are using less mah batteries.
Please tell me I am missing something.
Based off of my post in the DC9180 topic. If DeWALT made the change, it was during the latter part of 2010. No way to tell unless you take apart the pack.
I am however taking your word that their has actually been a change in the 36v batteries. I have never actually taken one apart.
If DeWALT did make a change to Sony in the 36v batteries, I would not complain. Iron Phosphate is still better than anything currently on the market, as far as Cycle life is concerned.
burlguy wrote:
First off, Hello. I am a long time Dewalt user and bought the 36v combo kit back in 2006-7. It has come to my understanding that the 36v batteries being made as of last year are no longer using a123 cells. They are a “aa” sized sanyo battery with 300mah less.
The big question is why? Cheaper, yes. Weighs more, yes(when both packs are weighed not individual cells).
I understand profit margins, but why would Black and Decker decide to cheapen and lessen the quality of a flagship line. Is there any way to influence corporate that this is the wrong thing to do?
The rc groups have already done the testing for me and I was in the market to replace my batteries. I guess rather than buying the new cheaper quality batteries I should send my 36v off to be rebuilt at less cost than a new battery.
Can someone give me some insight as to why they have made this choice? I dont want to give up on my 36v tools at this time, matter of fact I just purchased the 36 sds drill and I may just send it back, and I bought 2 extra batteries with it. This really makes me upset.
And Dewalt kept the same part number with no designation that they are using less mah batteries.
Please tell me I am missing something.
The 28/36v batteries were launched with A123 26650 cells and for the most part they were good, but there was a lot of returns of new and unopened batteries because one of the cell would self discharge at a higher rate than expected, forcing A123 to refund for all battery packs with this issue, and that the current cell had a higher manufacturing cost, so the switch was made to 18650 cells from A123 (different manufacturing location) and Samsung. The demand for 28/36v was not really there so that is another reason why 28v has fallen off the lineup; 36v batteries are still in demand and hopefully you will see some new tools. Yes, Dewalt kept the same part number, and the only way to tell which cells are in there is to open it up or from the serial number.
Madtec wrote:
First off, Hello. I am a long time Dewalt user and bought the 36v combo kit back in 2006-7. It has come to my understanding that the 36v batteries being made as of last year are no longer using a123 cells. They are a “aa” sized sanyo battery with 300mah less.
The big question is why? Cheaper, yes. Weighs more, yes(when both packs are weighed not individual cells).
I understand profit margins, but why would Black and Decker decide to cheapen and lessen the quality of a flagship line. Is there any way to influence corporate that this is the wrong thing to do?
The rc groups have already done the testing for me and I was in the market to replace my batteries. I guess rather than buying the new cheaper quality batteries I should send my 36v off to be rebuilt at less cost than a new battery.
Can someone give me some insight as to why they have made this choice? I dont want to give up on my 36v tools at this time, matter of fact I just purchased the 36 sds drill and I may just send it back, and I bought 2 extra batteries with it. This really makes me upset.
And Dewalt kept the same part number with no designation that they are using less mah batteries.
Please tell me I am missing something.
The 28/36v batteries were launched with A123 26650 cells and for the most part they were good, but there was a lot of returns of new and unopened batteries because one of the cell would self discharge at a higher rate than expected, forcing A123 to refund for all battery packs with this issue, and that the current cell had a higher manufacturing cost, so the switch was made to 18650 cells from A123 (different manufacturing location) and Samsung. The demand for 28/36v was not really there so that is another reason why 28v has fallen off the lineup; 36v batteries are still in demand and hopefully you will see some new tools. Yes, Dewalt kept the same part number, and the only way to tell which cells are in there is to open it up or from the serial number.
Thank you for the confirmation. I guess I will just have to give the new batteries a try and hope that their energy density and discharge rates under load are acceptable.
I have heard of the new tools on the drawing board for a year now. I certainly would not mind a xrp 36v battery, or perhaps a chance at buying the bare tools.
I actually had a battery have a couple of cells discharge to low and throw the trouble light on the charger. I brought the individual cells back up to 2.2+ volts(?) and threw the pack back on the charger. It has been over a year now with hard use and no problems.
Any hints as to what tools we may see coming?
Please do, it would be awesome if he posts the picture of the cells here.
Asked him today if it is ok to open up his battery pack and he told me, no problem. Presumably I will meet him in this weekend so I can take a picture of the battery.
I guess I must have been the only one that saw the 20V max battery pics the other night. Couldn’t make out the battery brand from the pics though.
Bingobelle wrote:
Please do, it would be awesome if he posts the picture of the cells here.
Asked him today if it is ok to open up his battery pack and he told me, no problem. Presumably I will meet him in this weekend so I can take a picture of the battery.
Please note ALL the numbers from the cells, if you can.
There are 5 in the compact, and 10 in the full size.
I think you guy’s all need to calm down a bit, until all the factual information has been laid out there. I’ve contacted Sanyo, and Samsung regarding some of these newer cells asking for additional information. I’m not holding my breath, but will wait to see if they pass along any additional information.
I have now emailed picture to Dewalt Dude.
But untill pics comming up this is what I was able to see.
Sanyo
UR18650W2 052A
It was hard to see anything because the colour of the text was very light. I could also read something like this in a different style of letters and numbers but this was vey very hard to see.
OL7WB
0584
I’ve got some pictures already, I will re-post them here in a minute.
DEWALTDUDE wrote:
There are 5 in the compact, and 10 in the full size.
You misunderstood my request. But thanks for making me laugh, there is no way I could have figured out 3.6v cell configuration in a 18v pack on my own. 😀
I meant part numbers.
I think you guy’s all need to calm down a bit, until all the factual information has been laid out there. I’ve contacted Sanyo, and Samsung regarding some of these newer cells asking for additional information. I’m not holding my breath, but will wait to see if they pBum along any additional information.
First, lol at censoring fail “pBum”.
Second, I’ve seen the specs for 36v pack Samsung cells and they are utter garbage compared to A123. Trust me on this one.