Archived from the Tools In Action forum (Power Tools). This thread is read-only.
So what kind of lithium ion cells are they using?
In the Sub-Compact M-12 battery 48-11-2401, Milwaukee uses the Samsung INR18650 13Q Cells.
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In the Sub Compact 12v battery R86048, Ridgid uses Sanyo UR18650SAX Cells.
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In the compact battery BAT609, Bosch uses the Samsung INR18650 13Q Cells.
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In the compact battery 130156001, Craftsman uses the Samsung INR18650 13Q Cells.
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In the DC9180 battery, Dewalt uses the A123 APR18650M1 Cells.
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In the compact battery BSL1815X, Hitachi uses the Sanyo UR18650SAX cells.
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In the compact battery BL1815, Makita’s uses Sony SE US18650OV, in the BL1830, Makita uses Sony SE US18650VT.
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In the compact battery 48-11-1815, Milwaukee uses Samsung INR18650 13Q Cells. Or the E-Moli IMR-18650E Cells.
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In the M-18 XC battery 48-11-1828, Milwaukee uses Samsung INR18650 13Q Cells.
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In the compact battery R840084, Ridgid uses E-Moli IMR-18650E Cells.
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In the compact battery P103, Ryboi uses Samsung INR18650 13Q Cells.
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Bosch, Craftsman, Milwaukee, and Ryobi all use the same Samsung INR18650 13Q cell.
Bosch – BAT609, $69. That’s $13.80 per cell. (5 cells)
Craftsman – 130156001, $89. That’s $17.80 per cell. (5 cells)
Milwaukee – 48-11-1815, $69. That’s $13.80 per cell. ( 5 cells)
Milwaukee – 48-11-1828, $119. That’s $11.90 per cell (10 cells)
Milwaukee – 48-11-2401, $40. That’s $13.33 per cell (3 cells)
Ryobi – P103, $49. That’s $9.80 per cell. (5 cells)
Makita and Hilti use the same Sony SE US18650VT cells.
Makita – BL1815, $79. That’s $15.80 per cell. (5 cells)
Makita – BL1830, $99. That’s $9.90 per cell. (10 cells)
Hilti – 360383, $189. That’s $15.75 per cell. (12 cells)
Dewalt – DC9180, $149. That’s $12.41 per cell. (12 cells)
Hitachi – BSL1815X, $79. That’s $15.80 per cell. (5 cells)
Ridgid – R86048, $40. That’s $13.33 per cell. (3 cells)
Ridgid – R840084, $69, That’s $13.80 per cell. (5 cells)
Well I’m not sure If I should give Ryobi (TTI) credit for using the same Samsung cells as Milwaukee (TTI) Craftsman (TTI) and Bosch? Or frown at TTI and Bosch? One thing is for certain, your paying a whole lot less for the same battery technology in the Ryobi P103 battery.
Even though the Dewalt DC9180 battery is the second most expensive battery, it is one of the 3rd least expensive per cell. At least Dewalt is not charging you more for the name! (Hilti) Plus your getting the best Lithium Ion Chemistry available for power tools.
Are all of the cells above the same mAh rating? I would be curious to see the cost per power of these batteries. Technological differences nonwithstanding.
Each manufacture has their own specs. Different Ah ratings, and different peak and nominal voltage ratings per cell.
Hi everyone, i’m a newbie here.
Just wonder why all the Samsung INR18650 13Q looks the same. The codes on the cells are all showing 13Q and 088. Does any one know what it stands for? You can see the codes on Sony and Moli are different.
I’m not sure I understand your question? The Samsung cells are all the same, because they are all the same cells just put in different manufactures shells.
JC, what I mean is, don’t the manufacturers add the codes on the cells with certain meaning? such as a batch code? You can see the batch codes on the Samsung are the same. Is it possible that they are the same batch (or even same cell, who knows).
some do, some don’t, what difference does it make? They can be serial number, QA person id or timestamps. They are all from the same batch, as capacity varies from batch to batch and manufacturers try to match the cells as close as possible.
Samsung put up their li-ion cell website. Also took apart the Bosch 10.8 battery, uses Samsung 13650-13P.
13Q and 13P are identical except the max discharge rate, both are 1.3 Ah @ 260 mA discharge. 13P is 10 Amps and 13Q is 18A. So all the 18v 2.6 Ah Bosch/Milwaukee/Ryobi etc stuff should have about the same torque at equal RPM. Milwaukee might be weaker because they use shit motors.
Anyone ever realize that the Craftsman batteries are marketed/claimed to be 19.2v.
But, given the info here about what they’re made of, that can’t be.
The Samsung INR 18650-13Q battery cell (of which there are five) is a 3.6v cell
3.6 * 5 == 18v
The battery is marketed as a 19.2v battery — which, given the inputs, is impossible.
This smells like a class action lawsuit to me. They’re claiming something that can’t be, and we’re all 6.67% worse off due to their misleading practices…
All of the other batteries which are using 5 of those cells are all clearly stated to be 18v units — except for the Sears/Craftsman/DieHard ….
It’s nominal voltage is 3.6v, fully charged it’s closer to 4.2v. Leaving you fully charged at 20v. So it’s not a total lie, at some point it crosses the 19.2v threshold.
once again, great pics and well done with that information.
You go to a lot of effort.
Can you tell me please if you know what brand and number of cells are in the Hitachi EBM1830 3.0AH HXP packs?
Thank you.
19.2 volts can be reached when the circuit is open (no load), it is the state when the battery is fully charged (3.8V-3.9V/cell) Under load conditions the battery voltage drops to 18V (3.6V/cell) until cut-off (2.7V-3.0/cell), lower voltages can destroy Li-Ion batteries, that’s why they have protection circuits.
do you know Milwaukee V28 is also use A123 ?thanks
toptoolscenter wrote:
do you know Milwaukee V28 is also use A123 ?thanks
Nope, they use Molly cells
hi
A123 APR18650M1 cell have nominal voltage of 3.3 volt and 1000ma this give a 3.3 w/h, output 30amp discharge
sony se us18650vt cell have nominal voltage of 3.7 volt and 1100ma this give a 4.07 w/h, output 15Amp discharge
sony se us18650vt cell have nominal voltage of 3.7 volt and 1500ma this give a 5.55 w/h, output 15Amp discharge
sanyo UR18650SAX cell have nominal voltage of 3.7 volt and 1250ma this give a 4.63 w/h, output 20Amp discharge
Samsung INR18650 13q cell have nominal voltage of 3.6 volt and 1300ma this give a 4.68, w/h output 18Amp discharge
Samsung INR18650 13p cell have nominal voltage of 3.6 volt and 1300ma this give a 4.68, w/h output 10Amp discharge
E-Moli IMR-18650E cell have nominal voltage of 3.8 volt and 1400ma this give a 5.32w/h, output 20Amp discharge
dischage rate give you the torque possibility of battery,but the real workhorse is the watts/hour it give you the real capacity of the cell,the power output in the time.
you can make the cost per w/h of battery yourself
have a nice day
teckno
sony se us18650v cell have nominal voltage of 3.7 volt and 1500ma this give a 5.55 wh, output 15Amp discharge
sorry
Teckno, even though watt hours seems like the most true and accurate measure of a batteries capacity, it’s not the whole story. This is because w/h are usually measured at a very low discharge rate. The measurement will not be the same at a high discharge rate.
So while a Sony se us18650v cell may be rated at 5.55 w/h, it might be just half of that when drained at a 15 amp rate.
This can be illustrated by comparing two tools. One might drill more holes with any bit under 1″, but the other drills more with any larger bit.
If we wanted a really meaningful measure of tools for comparison, we’d have “watt hours out” at low, medium, and high loads.
what does the 12v Max use?
Go to the “a look inside” forum. Dewalt 12v max uses Sanyo.
Well, here goes my first post here!
I haven’t seen much info out there on the Skil 18V pack (SB18B-LI) that is a drop in replacement for the Ni-Cads that are known for being horrible in every regard.
I decided to pick up one of the kits from Home Depot as it was only about $90 from the online store and I have quite a few of these tools floating around including a full sized 7.25 saw that has always been a favorite of mine. The tools were all in great shape but a small amount of neglect to the batteries have resulted in 4 dead packs.
Since I’ve looked at rebuilding the Ni-Cad packs as well I was curious which cells they used in these packs and have taken some pictures to share with the thread here. Looks like this is where you’re getting the Skil name, looks to be a well designed product and then they get the lowest rated cells to do the job. When these cells are getting weak I think I’ll replace them with some 25-30A units and see how that helps torque and such.
Great info here! Thanks for giving me a reason to open these things up. 🙂
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Thanks for posting these in. I’ve never taken a Skil cordless tool apart. Bosch currently uses Samsung cells, and being a partner in crime it’s no surprise to see Samsung cells being used here. Samsung is the creater of Milwaukee’s Red-lithium a battery that finally caught Milwaukee up with the rest of the competition in my opinion.
I don’t think rebuilding any lithium pack is a good idea, unless your simply replacing the cells with the same type of cell. Each brand has it’s own unique charging method, and as such could be dangerous… or the charger may not even charge them?
If you move forward with the rebuild, post in a follow-up.
Well I’ve ordered a second charger and battery pack and that may be one I test a rebuild on. Then I can keep the old set of cells on a shelf for reuse. I noticed that when using them in the sawzall they get warm and shut down after about 5 minutes of use. (Just cutting up some branches in the lawn)
Looking at this chart:
http://www.samsungsdi.com/battery/cylindrical-rechargeable-battery.jsp
I see the batteries are the 10A models, yikes… Not a whole lot of current available from those cells… My plan was to replace them with the same series of cells, just with a higher current draw rating. If I can get my hands on some INR18650-13R cells that’d be great, but anything looks to be better then what’s there now.
If I tear it down and replace the cells I’ll post up the work here.
And as an aside, a high end RC battery charger / conditioner does WONDERS for Ni-Cad cells that look dead. I made a modification so I could get half of the pack on the charger at a time and it has brought most of my Ni-Cad packs back to life. Well, if you consider life being 5-10 minutes of 100% power before they fold, still better then not taking a charge at all.
big disappointment! :'(
Dewalt that not only uses A123Systems
I’m not sure I understand what your saying?
check this out, Samsung 20R cells! Found them in my Milwaukee M18 XC pack!! This means they are 2.0Ah each, high rate cells. That makes this a 4ah pack!
Is that labeled as one of the new 4.0 packs or are they using better cells than advertised?
it is labeled as a standard xc pack. however I have other new packs that are 1.5. it seems I got lucky!
Those INR18650-20R cells seem to be very good too! More than 2.0 amp hours at 20 amp discharge:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/18537
Has anyone had a chance to take apart the DeWalt 4.0 packs? Are they using these great new cells too? How about Bosch?
Everybody has teamed up with the typical battery manuf. Dewalt is using the newer HC Sanyo cells, Bosch and Milwaukee are using the HC Samsung sells. Makita… who know’s what they have up their sleeve with Sony. Panasonic is doing their own cells at 4.2ah.
DeWALT is using Samsung cells as well now- 2 PK combo kit has them (look for the battery to have a label with yellow writing, not engraved on bottom of pack) as well as the newer packs hitting stores. 12v MAX has it as well in the newer 1.5ah packs. It would appear that DeWALT is trying to catch up with Milwaukee, not the other way around.
I’m not surprised. I wouldn’t call it catching up, it’s just being smart and not being brand loyal. They will use whatever is the best available as far as price/performance to keep competitive.
Hello, I’m a total newbie to the world of DeWalt Lithium Ion technology. I read a great deal about the nano lithium iron phosphate advantages in the 18V packs. My apologies if I got it all wrong, but am I correct in gleaning from this thread that the new 20V Dewalt packs are using metal oxide now? If yes, can someone shed some light on why the change? Thanks much. I’m trying to decide whether to get a 20V set instead of the 18V.
My first post i just opened my bosch 2AH packs which came with a idh-182 and they use sanyo UR18650rx.
These new LiHD 6.2Ah batteries from Metabo look like a game changer, can’t wait to get my hands on a few! http://www.metabo.com.au/LiHD-Technology.56489.0.html
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