Subcompact Recip and Rotary Hammer

First impressions of the subcompact Reciprocating Saw and Rotary Hammer.

I picked up these guys because I keep going back to the smaller platform. The subcompact drill and impact are perfect for my day-to-day service stuff.

I decided to look at the subcompact Rotary Hammer because it seemed perfect for putting up cabinets and running pipe.

This thing is tiny. Comically tiny. The design is unreal for such a small tool. The motor/Hammer completely isolated from the handle. The vibration is so minimal. It fits perfectly in the hand is almost perfectly balanced.

If you want a little beast for light applications, don’t hesitate.

I was about to leave when I spotted the subcompact recip saw.

Holy.Sh!t.

This little thing is beast. Heavy duty, ergonomic and built to take a beating.

If feels like a quality tool. It’s solid. It’s balanced.

It absolutely crushed the M12 Fuel. (To be fair, it is 18V and slightly bigger)

It is fast and has a longer stroke length than other compact recips and the regular compact 18V Makita recip I already own.

Suffice to say, I walked out with both tools and don’t regret it.

[External image (uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com), not copied]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looks like they should be more than adequate for cutting steaks and drilling pilot holes for thermometers :^D

That little recip saw is a beast, not much steak would be left!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What would you figure realistic repetitive use capacity is for that little rotohammer? Like 3/8 or just smaller tapcons? 

Stercorarius wrote:

What would you figure realistic repetitive use capacity is for that little rotohammer? Like 3/8 or just smaller tapcons? 

Neat. Considering going the Makita route for tools this time.

I really like how one battery spans three levels of size/performance.
Subcompact, Regular and 18×2, smart.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah that’s one of the main appeals for me. DeWalt has only one size really. Any of the “compact” tools DeWalt has like their sawzall are junk. I am tempted by Bosch and Metabo but they don’t have high torque wrenches which is a must for me. Makita seems to be killin it. 

Stercorarius wrote:

33 minutes ago, Stercorarius said:

Yeah that’s one of the main appeals for me. DeWalt has only one size really. Any of the “compact” tools DeWalt has like their sawzall are junk. I am tempted by Bosch and Metabo but they don’t have high torque wrenches which is a must for me. Makita seems to be killin it. 

If only they’d bring out some quality battery nail guns 😀

….  This good nailers please and thank you.  Dont want to get into hitachi or dewalt just for nailers

Hitachi nailers look ace tho

Dewalt has 1 size ? Agree no 12v platform but the 20v line is Compact and the best out there in every single test…and no one comes close to the 60v line especially Makita’s 2 battery line 36v……the 20v line has many compact tools and larger tools within the line…the makita subcompact line doesn’t even match M12 in size or power…..But I do see one advantage of owning 1 battery platform…

      unfortunately if you need real power the 36v line doesn’t cut it and the subcompact line is out classed by Milwaukee….but for small light limited uses it’s a solid line….IMO

Framer joe wrote:

the makita subcompact line doesn’t even match M12 in size or power…..But I do see one advantage of owning 1 battery platform…       unfortunately if you need real power the 36v line doesn’t cut it and the subcompact line is out classed by Milwaukee….but for small light limited uses it’s a solid line….IMO

 

I get it, you love to shit on Makita.

The Makita and M12 fuel are the same length, weight and virtually identical in spec. (Milwaukee specs faster though).

Even the M12 impact and Makita Subcompact impact spec out the same.(1st gen of course)

Unlike you, I have owned two of the M12 Fuel Rotary hammers, and can speak from experience and not make stuff up to fit my own preferences.

The Makita, on paper , should not drill as fast or faster than the Milwaukee, but I hate to break it to you, it does. It also doesn’t run thermo-nuclear hot like the Milwaukee does after 5-10 minutes of use.

The vibration level of the Makita is ridiculously lower and it even comes with side handle and dust extraction capabilities.

To be fair to Milwaukee, that M12 is getting pretty old and the 2nd Gen will most likely be a beast.

Skewed specs don’t make a tool valuable.

Real world use does.

One tool being 10% faster only matters on paper and in marketing materials.

I can charge batteries in 20 mins. (90 mins for the 4.0 Milwaukee) I can run the tool harder and longer.

I have one battery now, that works for me.

 https://youtu.be/7StT135EXf4

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Man, I should do a shoot out with the M12 and the Makita…

I don’t think anyone on here wants to see me in a video though!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Framer joe wrote:

15 hours ago, Framer joe said:

Dewalt has 1 size ? Agree no 12v platform but the 20v line is Compact and the best out there in every single test…and no one comes close to the 60v line especially Makita’s 2 battery line 36v……the 20v line has many compact tools and larger tools within the line…the makita subcompact line doesn’t even match M12 in size or power…..But I do see one advantage of owning 1 battery platform…

      unfortunately if you need real power the 36v line doesn’t cut it and the subcompact line is out classed by Milwaukee….but for small light limited uses it’s a solid line….IMO

Uhh…the hyperbole here is more than a little over-the-top. You assert Dewalt is “the best out there in every single test”? Such a statement isn’t even worth bothering to research, it’s WAY too tall to be taken seriously…but as I HAVE already watched and read a LOT of tests, it’s not hard to pick up that Dewalt not only doesn’t win them all but if anything probably lags, albeit not much, behind the other members of the “Big 3” prosumer companies Makita and Milwaukee on average.

Also, “no one comes close to the 60V line”? Dewalt has some great products there, certainly, some are class leaders like their worm-drive circular saw which according to a reasonable number of reviews beats out the Makita 36V hypoid,  but other 60V products have reviewed rather poorly for example the plunge saw.

Also, you may not be aware of this but the 60V Max (which I hope you already know is actually just 18×3=> 54V) comes at the expense of current output? A “60V Max” battery that says 9Ah only makes that in “20V Max” mode. When operating in “60V” mode it only has 3Ah. There is no free ride. The total power output available is exactly the same as Milwaukee’s High Demand battery, and is actually less than a pair of Makita’s 5Ah batteries run in X2. That’s just going to be the physics of it.

None of this makes Dewalt bad either. Most of my corded tools are Dewalt. They win their share of comparison tests and even when they don’t they tend to hang around the top of the field just like the other two brands, and all three companies turn in performances that are usually pretty close to each other. It’s just more objective to reign in the enthusiasm a little.

I doubt the any M12 drill could beat the Subcompact Makita drill (my BS18 quick Metabo does though). But, I haven’t used M12 so I probably have no idea. 

Look at the online videos though. They mostly run the M12 with the 4ah, which is 6 cells, and one video showed it struggling (relative to the 6 cell) with a 3 cell battery. That’s equivalent to the subcompact with a 10 cell 4ah battery. On paper the max torque may be the same but the Makita can likely produce higher torque at higher rpm. The videos seem to show the Makita clearly handling similar drilling and driving work better. 

We need a side by side comparison. But anyone doing it please use a 10 cell 3ah-6ah on the Makita if using the 6 cell 4ah on the M12. @HiltiWpg just do some time comparisons with different sized bits and screws and report back here. Or just keep drilling bigger holes and driving bigger screws and report back who did the biggest. 

I realize it’s only the 12v CXT, but it’s close enough!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think dewalt is currently on their game and have a very good offering of tools that might even be class leading in some areas but to act like they’re light years ahead of everyone else simply isn’t true.

@Framer joeeWalt has a few great tools in the flexvolt lineup like the grinder or the saws but other flexvolt tools ( recip, plunge saw, the current SDS Max ) are nothing special and get beaten by other tools ( like Makita 36v ) easily.

kornomaniac wrote:

On 21/02/2018 at 6:27 AM, kornomaniac said:

@Framer joeeWalt has a few great tools in the flexvolt lineup like the grinder or the saws but other flexvolt tools ( recip, plunge saw, the current SDS Max ) are nothing special and get beaten by other tools ( like Makita 36v ) easily.

 

 

 

 

If only they did that test with the new Dewalt dch733 the outcome would of been different. I tried to take the dch733 over to the makita tent at woc but they wouldn’t allow it  

Makita_2233 wrote:

8 hours ago, Makita_2233 said:

If only they did that test with the new Dewalt dch733 the outcome would of been different. I tried to take the dch733 over to the makita tent at woc but they wouldn’t allow it  

Yes, that’s what the word ‘ current ‘ in my post meant of course 🙂

Love you guys 🤪…..hilarious….ok I made a big bold statement, you got me on that, slightly just a wee bit over the top…Dewalt is most of the time 1or 2 in competitions…if I knew how to post a vid I’d put a funny one up too…..you really think the Dewalt is that slow? It just beat every sds out there but Hilti……I don’t hate Makita, I like them , some of the most comfortable and compact tools available……and as I said before I USE Makita everyday,hence my ability to comment on their tools…not sure how many guys on the makita section even use Makita tools all day everyday like me…

…..I criticize Dewalt, I don’t buy every Dewalt tool,..Makitas line of tools is Extensive…I just find Dewalt tools more powerful and long lasting , I comment on every tool brand section,it’s just my opinion based on use…

         Oh and Mr @ToolBane…I understand the math involved, but 60v at 3ah and 18v at 9ah is not the same output….I guarantee that you will get more work done in Real Life with the 60v flex tools at 3ah then any 18v tool with any battery size….🙃

Framer joe wrote:

3 hours ago, Framer joe said:

I understand the math involved, but 60v at 3ah and 18v at 9ah is not the same output….I guarantee that you will get more work done in Real Life with the 60v flex tools at 3ah then any 18v tool with any battery size….🙃

I get the sense you’re falling for Dewalt’s questionable marketing labeling with the whole “20V/60V Max” thing.

The actual operating voltage of Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries is 54V. Dewalt’s “20V Max” batteries are 18V nominal voltage exactly the same way all 18V platforms are. They’re claiming 20 volts because that’s the voltage an 18V battery reads when fully charged and NOT doing any work. ALL 18V Lithium batteries will measure 20V when first charged and not doing any work, regardless of who the manufacturer it is. They buy the same Lithium ion cells everyone else buys from Samsung, Sony, etc then wire them in the same 5-cell series to reach the 18V operating voltage.

Applied to Flexvolt, Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries are really 3x18V=54V. They’re even labeled that way in other countries they’re sold in.

The 3Ah “60V Max” battery has the same power available as Milwaukee’s 9Ah 18V High Demand, and less than 2x5Ah 18V Makita batteries in X2. There’s no way around it.

ToolBane wrote:

41 minutes ago, ToolBane said:

Dewalt’s questionable marketing

All over the internet people give Dewalt a hard time for their 20V Max but ignore 12V labeling.

What about Milwaukee and their M12? It’s just as bad but never gets a mention, anywhere. People only seem to complain about Dewalt.

At least Dewalt and Makita state it’s “Max”. It should be M12 Max or M10.8 😀

54 volts isn’t 60. 18 volts isn’t 20. 10.8 volts isn’t 12. 108 volts isn’t 120. 3.6 volts isn’t 4.

Standing voltage rating is misleading. Regardless of who is doing it. Dewalt is the only company that does it across the board. They also don’t publish the tool ratings clearly or honestly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The are using “*” beside the numbers now, so I guess that’s a little better.

“*Maximum initial battery voltage (measured without a workload) is 4, 20, 60 and 120 volts. Nominal voltage is 3.6, 18, 54 and 108. 120V MAX* is based on using 2 DEWALT 60V MAX* lithium-ion batteries combined.”



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ToolBane wrote:

2 hours ago, ToolBane said:

I get the sense you’re falling for Dewalt’s questionable marketing labeling with the whole “20V/60V Max” thing.

 

The actual operating voltage of Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries is 54V. Dewalt’s “20V Max” batteries are 18V nominal voltage exactly the same way all 18V platforms are. They’re claiming 20 volts because that’s the voltage an 18V battery reads when fully charged and NOT doing any work. ALL 18V Lithium batteries will measure 20V when first charged and not doing any work, regardless of who the manufacturer it is. They buy the same Lithium ion cells everyone else buys from Samsung, Sony, etc then wire them in the same 5-cell series to reach the 18V operating voltage.

 

Applied to Flexvolt, Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries are really 3x18V=54V. They’re even labeled that way in other countries they’re sold in.

 

The 3Ah “60V Max” battery has the same power available as Milwaukee’s 9Ah 18V High Demand, and less than 2x5Ah 18V Makita batteries in X2. There’s no way around it.

I’m pretty sure he and everyone else on here knows that already, that’s pretty much common knowledge around here.  You are comparing batteries, framer joe is comparing tools

I don’t mean that to come off as snappy, I was just making a statement. People share personal experiences with tools they use everyday on here and imo that means more than what any spec says about tools and/or batteries

Makita 18vx2 or 36 volt doesn’t cut it compared to Dewalt 60 volt. That’s a laugh. Makita is equal and/or better. I own many of both. Sawzall, Makita better. Blower, Makita better, chain saw, equal . Rear handle circular saw, equal (Dewalt has more power, Makita more run time, note both have more than enough power, Makita is easier to use). Miter saws, equal just different strokes for different folks. 

Each system has its points. Makita uses one battery and focuses on compatibility and fast charging batteries, more power by doubling batteries and run time. 

Dewalt is focusing on max power and adding runtime to 20 v tools. 

But really both companies are making good tools.

Makita has some better tools, better cordless jig saw, router, sander, plate joiner, etc

the Makita sub compact may win no spec sheet c9ntests but they feel good in hand. 

I feel so far some flexvolt are surprisingly good, that massive right angle drill and grinder and some are a missed opportunity like the table saw, it just does not have enough run time along with the compressor. Both should be 60vx2. Dewalts new 20vx2 lawn mower could be foreshadowing as Dewalt sees the light that 36 v x 2 is enough power but better run time. Dewalt is truly better in only one way marketing and brainwashing. 

To be fair to Dewalt guys, they haven’t drank the Kool Aid as bad as Milwaukee guys!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

….. and the Makita track saw spanks flexvolt, but I do like my dcs577 1800. Very handy

D W wrote:

12 hours ago, D W said:

 

All over the internet people give Dewalt a hard time for their 20V Max but ignore 12V labeling.

 

What about Milwaukee and their M12? It’s just as bad but never gets a mention, anywhere. People only seem to complain about Dewalt.

 

At least Dewalt and Makita state it’s “Max”. It should be M12 Max or M10.8 😀

This is why I chose the word “questionable” as opposed to “shady” or “dishonest”. I had a better word, but forgot it while typing.

Not dcs577.  But dcb 1800 battery generator. 

Framer joe wrote:

17 hours ago, Framer joe said:

I understand the math involved, but 60v at 3ah and 18v at 9ah is not the same output….I guarantee that you will get more work done in Real Life with the 60v flex tools at 3ah then any 18v tool with any battery size….🙃

AnonymousJoe wrote:

11 hours ago, AnonymousJoe said:

I’m pretty sure he and everyone else on here knows that already, that’s pretty much common knowledge around here. You are comparing batteries, framer joe is comparing tools

It looks like he’s comparing batteries to me, and his is not a statement citing direct use of the tools here. It’s a hand-waving statement guaranteeing superiority of all Flexvolt tools on account of an assumed superiority in their batteries. There are advantages to using a higher voltage arrangement, but they don’t guarantee higher performance on the scale we’re talking about.

People can be fans and have a hard time not being enthusiastic about what they like, but the way his post reads doesn’t lend the impression he understands the 18V vs 20V is nothing more than marketing/labeling. That isn’t uncommon at all, and when fans latch on to such misunderstandings to justify their fandom it’s…awkward.

I think he’s just saying that even though mathematically 60v at 3ah or 18v at 9ah are the same 162wh he thinks he gets more work done with the 60v/54v.  Which could be a big debate in itself and has been on many forums.  But like was said before I don’t think he’s trying to argue that 60v is better than 54v or 20v is better than 18v.  Most people that care enough about tools to be on a tool forum have the 20v max and 18v nominal thing figured out.

Who cares if it’s the tool or the battery.  The fact is Dewalt is not better in every category. That’s all I am saying. It seems to me that there is a fellow who posts here that no matter the tool Dewalt is better than Makita. I find that laughable. It’s pretty much been found out by personal experience and by plenty of on line comparisons that flexvolt has tons of power but lacking in run time. That being said I like the dewalt I have, dhs 790, dcb 1800, right angle drill, grinder, dcs577, etc…  . 

glass wrote:

1 hour ago, glass said:

Who cares if it’s the tool or the battery.  The fact is Dewalt is not better in every category. That’s all I am saying. It seems to me that there is a fellow who posts here that no matter the tool Dewalt is better than Makita. I find that laughable. It’s pretty much been found out by personal experience and by plenty of on line comparisons that flexvolt has tons of power but lacking in run time. That being said I like the dewalt I have, dhs 790, dcb 1800, right angle drill, grinder, dcs577, etc…  . 

Not to mention this is a Makita thread to begin with.

ToolBane wrote:

21 hours ago, ToolBane said:

I get the sense you’re falling for Dewalt’s questionable marketing labeling with the whole “20V/60V Max” thing.

 

The actual operating voltage of Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries is 54V. Dewalt’s “20V Max” batteries are 18V nominal voltage exactly the same way all 18V platforms are. They’re claiming 20 volts because that’s the voltage an 18V battery reads when fully charged and NOT doing any work. ALL 18V Lithium batteries will measure 20V when first charged and not doing any work, regardless of who the manufacturer it is. They buy the same Lithium ion cells everyone else buys from Samsung, Sony, etc then wire them in the same 5-cell series to reach the 18V operating voltage.

 

Applied to Flexvolt, Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries are really 3x18V=54V. They’re even labeled that way in other countries they’re sold in.

 

The 3Ah “60V Max” battery has the same power available as Milwaukee’s 9Ah 18V High Demand, and less than 2x5Ah 18V Makita batteries in X2. There’s no way around it.

Well for the sake of correctness: there is an efficiency plus from having the power available in higher voltages (  54 vs 36 vs 18). And the DeWalt 3.0 amp flexvolt uses 20700 cells which deliver their power more efficiently then 18650 cells ( only under heavy loads ).

On the other hand an X2 setup by Makita has a 33% higher capacity of available energy. And a X2 setup puts less strain on the cells ( 20 cells vs 15 in flexvolt ).

Noone here is an engineer but it seems to even out 🙂

Well, coincidentally I actually have a non-trivial amount of engineering background among other things, though it doesn’t happen to be my current line of work.

When it comes to cells, a larger cell can more easily be made to have a lower internal resistance than a smaller cell (which is where the heat comes from when cells are subjected to high current exchange), but it’s far from guaranteed, because the quality of lithium cells are all over the map. Lithium cells can have a wide range of internal resistances. So it’s not quite as simple as saying larger cells automatically will be more efficient…but it is a general trend you might expect. One would have to look at the quality of cells, which will depend on the manufacturer they are sourced from among other things. I’m not privy to all that myself for power tools specfically, and some other people here will likely have more of that stuff off the top of their heads than me as far as power tools are concerned, I just know it will be a factor here the same way it is for lithium cells being used for anything else.

There is certainly the potential to gain higher efficiency via higher voltages, as probably a good percentage of people have gotten to experience first-hand, but it is not guaranteed. More precisely, you can get the same efficiency using less copper in your wiring, motor windings, etc. That doesn’t create an insurmountable hurdle for competitors using lower voltages, not within the power draw we have on power tools, for the most part they may have to weigh more material cost against lower efficiency. In most applications you can match performance if you are sufficiently willing to bear the material cost. This is what Milwaukee is almost certainly banking on to keep competitive against X2, Flexvolt, etc while committing to straight 18V for now. They probably can’t sit on that forever, but that’s another topic.

Forgive me if for some of you these are all concepts you are already perfectly familiar with. I don’t assume this is all familiar for everyone however.

Well there’s a YouTube video of a guy putting a steady amp draw on the cells of different batteries. Tries different amp draws.

And the conclusion of that video was indeed that the 20700 cells in the metabo LIHD and flexvolt 3 amp battery are indeed more efficient under heavy loads. They build up less internal resistance then the 18650 cells uses by Makita/Bosch.

That’s what I was basing my post on.  So larger cells don’t have to be more efficient but they are in the case of flexvolt 🙂

And yet Makita 18v x2 consistently outperforms flexvolt. It’s not a battery that cuts the wood. So that’s why I stay invested in Makita, the tools are better. Yet there are some Dewalt tools I like. 

sooo….  when are we getting a cordless 18g and framing nailer?

danielicrazy wrote:

2 hours ago, danielicrazy said:

sooo….  when are we getting a cordless 18g and framing nailer?

18g nailer exists. It’s just a POS for most people 😛