Archived from the Tools In Action forum (Makita). This thread is read-only.
Hey,
Seeing some new makita impactx bits on the website. How are these different from the impact gold? step up, step down? How do they compare?
Doubt anyone has been able to try and compare em yet since they’re new 🙂
From what i understand. Gold bits had the ‘ flexible’ shaft to resist the torque. ( which means that its a softer steel ) and the new impactX are made from an extra hard steeel with heat threathment to make em stand up to the abuse.
Time will tell 🙂
danielicrazy wrote:
On 5/5/2017 at 4:59 PM, danielicrazy said:Hey,
Seeing some new makita impactx bits on the website. How are these different from the impact gold? step up, step down? How do they compare?
probably like milwaukee shockwave gen 1 vs gen 2
I hope not, gen 2 shockwaves suck and snap so easily. I’ve never broken a makita gold tho
AnonymousJoe wrote:
11 hours ago, AnonymousJoe said:I hope not, gen 2 shockwaves suck and snap so easily. I’ve never broken a makita gold tho
Ive exploded a few makita but nothing like the milwaukees, they aren’t nearly as brittle
JimboS1ice wrote:
Ive exploded a few makita but nothing like the milwaukees, they aren’t nearly as brittle
Brittle is Milwaukees middle name!
I have blown up an entire set of carbide drill bits (well, all but 2-3 bits) and quite a few Robertson bits. The crazy thing about the bits is that I tried several lengths too.
The stubby bits are no better than the 6″ bits.
I don’t mind the Makita bits, no issues yet. I do however, find myself going back to Wera often.
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I’m still not sure that impact rated driver bits make all the difference anyway. I’m still using old dewalt bits from before the days of impact drivers and they very rarely shatter.
I can understand it with society but again, bar a thin wall socket I’ve had split I’ve never had a chrome vanadium socket break on an impact wrench.
stductwork wrote:
4 hours ago, stductwork said:I’m still not sure that impact rated driver bits make all the difference anyway. I’m still using old dewalt bits from before the days of impact drivers and they very rarely shatter.
I can understand it with society but again, bar a thin wall socket I’ve had split I’ve never had a chrome vanadium socket break on an impact wrench.
Wouldn’t surprise me if some brands are a gimmick but with other brands you do notice a slight difference in performance rather durability, something “impacted” rated is generally softer and allows for minor torsion in the bit it self, take the Wiha Terminators for instance are actually a two piece bit which if you grab both ends you can twist it yourself, this allows the bit to absorb the impact blow better, now I have a bunch of Tekton bits that are not impact rated, first use of it I make myself a little prison shiv, they can’t absorb the energy like softer bits do
JimboS1ice wrote:
3 hours ago, JimboS1ice said:
Wouldn’t surprise me if some brands are a gimmick but with other brands you do notice a slight difference in performance rather durability, something “impacted” rated is generally softer and allows for minor torsion in the bit it self, take the Wiha Terminators for instance are actually a two piece bit which if you grab both ends you can twist it yourself, this allows the bit to absorb the impact blow better, now I have a bunch of Tekton bits that are not impact rated, first use of it I make myself a little prison shiv, they can’t absorb the energy like softer bits do
You can twist them yourself? So people are paying hundreds for the latest and greatest impact drivers then to go and buy bits and bit holders that actually encourage torque loss? Terrible idea and a waste of money.
Rigidity and as few joints as possible make impact drivers economical.
stductwork wrote:
45 minutes ago, stductwork said:
You can twist them yourself? So people are paying hundreds for the latest and greatest impact drivers then to go and buy bits and bit holders that actually encourage torque loss? Terrible idea and a waste of money.
Rigidity and as few joints as possible make impact drivers economical.
It’s supposed to flex to avoid breakage, same reason impact sockets are softer than regular sockets.
BMack37 wrote:
1 hour ago, BMack37 said:
It’s supposed to flex to avoid breakage, same reason impact sockets are softer than regular sockets.
Well I’m not sure what you mean by softer but if any of the impact sockets I own were to show any give or wear through being softer they’d be going straight back to the manufacturer.
If sockets give at all they not fit for purpose. Example you set your torque wrench to 400nm but the socket ‘flex’ gives at 350nm(hypothetically), then the socket isn’t any good.
As with give in driver bits, again your losing torque so personally I’ll stick to normal bits and break 3:1 at 1/3 the cost. On that basis there’s no benefit to them. Lost energy from bits just renders high torque impact drivers pointless. At the same time some of these ‘torsion’ bits wouldn’t move under 170nm and if they do the metal is garbage anyway and probably won’t last.
By softer we don’t mean put your nail through it but something harder tends to be more brittle, with the impact energy going through a harder more brittle material it will cause failure, something designed to absorb the energy and transfer it into the fastener is much more beneficial, best example is your impact sockets verse your traditional chrome sockets, polished chrome is hard yet very brittle which is why on impacts you’ll see either the socket crack or the chrome finish chip off, and impact sockets material is RELATIVELY softer than a traditional socket much like impact driver bits
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stductwork wrote:
9 hours ago, stductwork said:
Well I’m not sure what you mean by softer but if any of the impact sockets I own were to show any give or wear through being softer they’d be going straight back to the manufacturer.
If sockets give at all they not fit for purpose. Example you set your torque wrench to 400nm but the socket ‘flex’ gives at 350nm(hypothetically), then the socket isn’t any good.
As with give in driver bits, again your losing torque so personally I’ll stick to normal bits and break 3:1 at 1/3 the cost. On that basis there’s no benefit to them. Lost energy from bits just renders high torque impact drivers pointless. At the same time some of these ‘torsion’ bits wouldn’t move under 170nm and if they do the metal is garbage anyway and probably won’t last.
All of your impact sockets are softer than regular sockets, when metal gets harder it becomes more brittle…impacting breaks the harder material.
Go ahead and do your research: https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#safe=off&q=difference+between+impact+sockets+and+regular+sockets
JimboS1ice wrote:
11 hours ago, JimboS1ice said:By softer we don’t mean put your nail through it but something harder tends to be more brittle, with the impact energy going through a harder more brittle material it will cause failure.
You’ve completely removed the composite of the metal. Chrome Vanadium or S2 isn’t brittle because it’s harder, it’s brittle because it’s higher in carbon. I’ll also add I use Chrome sockets on an impact wrench daily and have done for years. To break most chrome sockets the force needed over a long time far exceed the most conventional impact drivers and wrenches. Only higher rated wrenches such as those used by steel erectors would break them down quickly. Impact rated sockets will crack. I believe you follow my instagram, posted a photo of a cracked impact socket just last week.
BMack37 wrote:
5 hours ago, BMack37 said:
All of your impact sockets are softer than regular sockets, when metal gets harder it becomes more brittle…impacting breaks the harder material.
Go ahead and do your research: https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#safe=off&q=difference+between+impact+sockets+and+regular+sockets
See attached image. On the left is 41xx Steel or as Referred chrome molybdenum. It’s not softer than S2 steel at all. It’s infact a lot harder. The make up of it is in fact different.
I’ve never broken a flextorq bit or even worn one to being unusable. The Makita look very similar to flextorq bits. They should last awhile at least.
stductwork wrote:
6 hours ago, stductwork said:
You’ve completely removed the composite of the metal. Chrome Vanadium or S2 isn’t brittle because it’s harder, it’s brittle because it’s higher in carbon. I’ll also add I use Chrome sockets on an impact wrench daily and have done for years. To break most chrome sockets the force needed over a long time far exceed the most conventional impact drivers and wrenches. Only higher rated wrenches such as those used by steel erectors would break them down quickly. Impact rated sockets will crack. I believe you follow my instagram, posted a photo of a cracked impact socket just last week.
See attached image. On the left is 41xx Steel or as Referred chrome molybdenum. It’s not softer than S2 steel at all. It’s infact a lot harder. The make up of it is in fact different.
Tensile strength is resistance to break under tension, not a hardness rating. Seriously, just google it, it’s well known information. My use of “Soft” doesn’t mean weak.
Also, of course it’s possible to break impact sockets.
Use any impact socket a lot, it will be noticeably worn a lot faster than a standard socket on the square end just from insertion onto the tool.
First link on the Google link I provided.
Cleve Pechuekonis, marketing manager at Ingersoll Rand:
Quote: ” “Impact sockets are designed to handle the torque and flexibility without the product failing or shattering,” says Pechuekonis. Impact sockets are made from a softer, more malleable material called chromoly bdenum. This material is softer and more flexible to absorb the higher impact in situations where regular sockets would shatter like an ice cube. That’s not to say that an impact socket can’t split open. The important thing to remember is that they won’t shatter and send debris flying. Most impact sockets are gray in color or a black finish that looks like chrome. ”
Fourth link, from Snap-on:
” Chrome hand sockets and impact sockets have differences that are a lot more than skin deep. Each is designed and manufactured with specific applications in mind, and they are built to handle that job only. The user must be careful not to use a chrome hand socket on an impact gun.
The impact socket has thick walls and is finished in a black phosphate or black oxide finish. The design is also distinct as impact sockets have a cross hole in the handle end for use with a retaining pin and ring or locking pin anvil to allow the socket to be securely attached to the square drive of an impact gun.
Power sockets, designed for use with power nut runners, multi-spindle machines and angle head nut drivers, may cause some confusion since they are offered in a black finish. But, they are stamped “WARNING: NON-IMPACT.” Power sockets are heat treated to a higher hardness than either impact or hand sockets. This high hardness, combined with thick socket walls, produces a strong, wear resistant socket. This socket is ideal for assembly-line work where it is not subjected to high-impact loads.
Hand sockets have a thin wall which allows for clearance in general applications where hand torquing is used. Hand sockets, except for those intended for industrial use, are chrome plated. Although hand sockets and power sockets can fit the impact wrench, they are not the same and must not be used on impact tools.
One difference you can’t see between these two different types of sockets has to do with the way each has been heat treated and/or the composition of the metal used. The impact socket made out of medium carbon alloy steel is heat treated to a low hardness range which has been optimized for impact use. This means that under heavy, continuous use, an impact socket will withstand the impact blows and will wear rather than break.
Hand sockets are made of medium carbon alloy steel heat treated to a hardness range commensurate with their size and configuration. Hand sockets are heat treated to a comparatively higher hardness for high strength and more wear resistance than impact sockets. But, they are made to sustain hand applied torque applications only. In other words, they are not designed for use on impact guns, and should never be used on them.
Using only impact sockets on impact wrenches reduces the risk of injury, delays and damaged work. It’s relatively easy to spot a hand socket that’s been misused on an impact wrench. Check the square drive end for signs of damage and distortion. Cracks and other damage will often appear around the wrench end as well. Breakage due to impact use is considered misuse and not through any fault of the hand socket itself.
If the right socket for the job isn’t available, the job can be delayed and tools can be damaged. Improperly using hand sockets on impact tools may be hazardous as they may crack. By knowing the difference between the various types of sockets and using them appropriately, you will be able to ensure a safer and more efficient work environment.”
On the two data sheets it plainly says the hardness scale rates impact sockets 3 times that of S2 steel.
My experience most probably counts for nothing and I’m probably reading the data sheets wrong, eh. It’s not like tool companies try to sell you tools or anything.
stductwork wrote:
44 minutes ago, stductwork said:On the two data sheets it plainly says the hardness scale rates impact sockets 3 times that of S2 steel.
My experience most probably counts for nothing and I’m probably reading the data sheets wrong, eh. It’s not like tool companies try to sell you tools or anything.
Yeah, it must be some big conspiracy from EVERY TOOL COMPANY ON EARTH to prove you wrong with their tests and data.
BMack37 wrote:
1 minute ago, BMack37 said:
Yeah, it must be some big conspiracy from EVERY TOOL COMPANY ON EARTH to prove you wrong with their tests and data.
Where do you have to be for 30 to be greater than 90? On the same point the anvil, spring and hammer in most impact wrenches aren’t made from the same stuff impact sockets are yet they take the beating just fine. It would be the case that impact sockets can cost three/four times that of a cheap-o-nasty chrome socket.
As for prove me wrong, I don’t see how. I’ve shown a data sheet which suggests impact sockets are harder than S2/Chrome sockets. I use impact wrenches all day every day and use both chrome and impact rated sockets; both do a job and do it well with the DTW281.
But back to the point I was originally trying to make before it got derailed, if you consider there to be a massive benefit to spending the/four times what you would on a normal bit or socket, spend it, it’s your money. I personally haven’t found that benefit after spending the money.
stductwork wrote:
Just now, stductwork said:
Where do you have to be for 30 to be greater than 90? On the same point the anvil, spring and hammer in most impact wrenches aren’t made from the same stuff impact sockets are yet they take the beating just fine. It would be the case that impact sockets can cost three/four times that of a cheap-o-nasty chrome socket.
As for prove me wrong, I don’t see how. I’ve shown a data sheet which suggests impact sockets are harder than S2/Chrome sockets. I use impact wrenches all day every day and use both chrome and impact rated sockets; both do a job and do it well with the DTW281.
But back to the point I was originally trying to make before it got derailed, if you consider there to be a massive benefit to spending the/four times what you would on a normal bit or socket, spend it, it’s your money. I personally haven’t found that benefit after spending the money.
I proved you wrong by citing credible sources, you cited wikipedia, which isn’t even a credible source in grade school…but since you are caught up on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench
“Non-impact sockets and accessories are made of a harder more brittle metal.”
Did your wikipedia post mention any metallurgy (including heat and surface treatment) or just the base material specs?
All propaganda:
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/shockwave/impact-driver-bits
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“High-Quality Steel, Xtreme Torsion Technology
Impact GOLD™ begins with high-quality steel engineered for use with impact drivers. To help withstand the increased impact energy of the most demanding applications, Impact GOLD™ features Xtreme Torsion Technology, which allows the torsion section of the bit to flex under load and take the pressure off of the bit tip. Xtreme Torsion Technology helps the insert bit withstand high-torque fastening applications, retain its shape and “fitment”, and last up to 10-times longer than standard bits – and up to 15-times longer when used with an Impact GOLD™ Torsion Insert Bit Holder.”
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Dewalf Flextorq(as if the named didn’t clue you in):
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You cited marketing wank mate. I don’t know why you’re so bothered. Spend your money where you want. I know what works for me and I’m happy with that.
Did your wikipedia post mention any metallurgy (including heat and surface treatment) or just the base material specs?
Well, did you read it yourself?
stductwork wrote:
1 hour ago, stductwork said:
Where do you have to be for 30 to be greater than 90? On the same point the anvil, spring and hammer in most impact wrenches aren’t made from the same stuff impact sockets are yet they take the beating just fine. It would be the case that impact sockets can cost three/four times that of a cheap-o-nasty chrome socket.
As for prove me wrong, I don’t see how. I’ve shown a data sheet which suggests impact sockets are harder than S2/Chrome sockets. I use impact wrenches all day every day and use both chrome and impact rated sockets; both do a job and do it well with the DTW281.
But back to the point I was originally trying to make before it got derailed, if you consider there to be a massive benefit to spending the/four times what you would on a normal bit or socket, spend it, it’s your money. I personally haven’t found that benefit after spending the money.
Those hardness values cannot be directly compared because they are on different Rockwell scales. The 90 was measured on the Rockwell B scale and the 30 on the Rockwell C scale with the C scale being harder scale, with some over lap in hardness on the high end of B scale and the low end of the C scale.
I’m done here; this is why I couldn’t be a teacher, I don’t have the patience.
BMack37 wrote:
I’m done here; this is why I couldn’t be a teacher, I don’t have the patience.
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This thread reads like “cigarettes aren’t bad; I’ve smoked them since I was 14 and I’m 90 now!”. Congrats on your sample size of one; raw thorough data. As long as we are relying on anecdotal evidence, here’s my 2 cents you can toss in the fountain: we go through plenty of non-impact rated bits at work in a hurry. (Quality) impact rated take much longer to wear through.
Just use Wera, Wiha, or Felo bits and forget about it. Shatter one (shoot a pic of it) and Ill gladly give you a new one.
KC_Tool wrote:
Just use Wera, Wiha, or Felo bits and forget about it. Shatter one (shoot a pic of it) and Ill gladly give you a new one.
Atta boy wiha and felo are my favorite
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KC_Tool wrote:
19 hours ago, KC_Tool said:Just use Wera, Wiha, or Felo bits and forget about it. Shatter one (shoot a pic of it) and Ill gladly give you a new one.
To be honest, that’s BS! You shouldn’t warranty them because they’re wear items! I wouldn’t try to warranty one if it unless it was less than a day or 100 screws(which ever comes later). I love your customer service but that’s above and beyond, I guess it does go to show the quality of bits you sell because Milwaukee and Dewalt would lose a ton of money if they offered that…I don’t think I’ve ever complained about a warranty being too good before [External image (i.imgur.com), not copied]
In my opinion, Felo is the most underappreciated tool company, their bits are fantastic. Supposedly PB Swiss was the best based on wear (from people on various forums) but Felo has proven (to me) to be better. Wera and Wiha are very comparable to PB Swiss, in my usage.
Well I’m a Wera fanatic but I may have to expand my horizons to other areas of German-owned manufacturing lol.
BMack37 wrote:
To be honest, that’s BS! You shouldn’t warranty them because they’re wear items! I wouldn’t try to warranty one if it unless it was less than a day or 100 screws(which ever comes later). I love your customer service but that’s above and beyond, I guess it does go to show the quality of bits you sell because Milwaukee and Dewalt would lose a ton of money if they offered that…I don’t think I’ve ever complained about a warranty being too good before [External image (i.imgur.com), not copied]
In my opinion, Felo is the most underappreciated tool company, their bits are fantastic. Supposedly PB Swiss was the best based on wear (from people on various forums) but Felo has proven (to me) to be better. Wera and Wiha are very comparable to PB Swiss, in my usage.
Agreed about felo, I have an upcoming video where I’ll hit on that topic
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Well this escalated quickly.
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BMack37 wrote:
On 5/13/2017 at 10:57 AM, BMack37 said:
To be honest, that’s BS! You shouldn’t warranty them because they’re wear items! I wouldn’t try to warranty one if it unless it was less than a day or 100 screws(which ever comes later). I love your customer service but that’s above and beyond, I guess it does go to show the quality of bits you sell because Milwaukee and Dewalt would lose a ton of money if they offered that…I don’t think I’ve ever complained about a warranty being too good before [External image (i.imgur.com), not copied]
In my opinion, Felo is the most underappreciated tool company, their bits are fantastic. Supposedly PB Swiss was the best based on wear (from people on various forums) but Felo has proven (to me) to be better. Wera and Wiha are very comparable to PB Swiss, in my usage.
Yeah Im not going to warranty them if they wear. I will warranty them if you shatter them. It really is going to be a case by case basis but for TIA people Im a little more lenient. Goes to the value of people on this board.
I have lots of wera impact bits a long with the dewalt flex torques and Bosch impact bits and after plenty of use I’ve shattered a few of each brand but the flex torques hold up very well and the fit of the ph2 bits are better then any other brand I’ve tried but what I will say is I prefer a great fitting bit over another that lasts ages as I can’t stand bits that don’t fit very well !
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Felo actually has the best solution. They have a 20 euro bit holder with 3 torsion zones inside. That thing is marvelous 🙂 you can skip the expensive impact bits and just use regular hardened bits in the bit holder.
Works every time and is only a 1 time investment. And normal bits wear less then impact bits over time 🙂
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thats the one
I’ve got it, that’s right, from @KC_Tool ! Oh yeah! And it really is an awesome holder.
KC_Tool wrote:
Just use Wera, Wiha, or Felo bits and forget about it. Shatter one (shoot a pic of it) and Ill gladly give you a new one.
I still need to try Felo bits and Vega.
Ok. I need some help. On the topic of bits, what drill bits do you all use? I’ve always bought cheapos knowing I will ruin them (essentially disposable tools). We are thinking of carrying drill bits in the future. Any suggestions? We specialize in German brand tools but we could potentially branch out if we have to. What do you all think?
We could do a kickstarter and call it “crowd sourcing” drill bits or some other hipster BS.
Artisanal, small batch drill bits would make those guys with capri pants, suspenders, and mustache wax go crazy.
KC_Tool wrote:
Ok. I need some help. On the topic of bits, what drill bits do you all use? I’ve always bought cheapos knowing I will ruin them (essentially disposable tools). We are thinking of carrying drill bits in the future. Any suggestions? We specialize in German brand tools but we could potentially branch out if we have to. What do you all think?
We could do a kickstarter and call it “crowd sourcing” drill bits or some other hipster BS.
Artisanal, small batch drill bits would make those guys with capri pants, suspenders, and mustache wax go crazy.
For some European brands, you. Could look at Colt and Freud (forstner)
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Dormer makes the best imo. But price/quality German based ruko is a good brand 🙂
kornomaniac wrote:
Dormer makes the best imo. But price/quality German based ruko is a good brand [emoji4]
I’d take a European opinion over mine ?
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My good drill bits are CLE, I have some Hanson(Irwin) also.
kornomaniac wrote:
Felo actually has the best solution. They have a 20 euro bit holder with 3 torsion zones inside. That thing is marvelous [emoji4] you can skip the expensive impact bits and just use regular hardened bits in the bit holder.
Works every time and is only a 1 time investment. And normal bits wear less then impact bits over time [emoji4]
Does this bit holder have a snap ring in the top to hold the bits in or does it just rely on the magnet ? Do the bits come out of it often or does it hold them in well ?
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Only a magnet. And unfortunately not the strongest magnet ! That’s what felo would have to improve on a gen 2 🙂
kornomaniac wrote:
2 hours ago, kornomaniac said:Only a magnet. And unfortunately not the strongest magnet ! That’s what felo would have to improve on a gen 2 🙂
What’s weird is their other holders’ magnets are ridiculously strong. Maybe they used a different magnet because neodymium is soo brittle?
BMack37 wrote:
What’s weird is their other holders’ magnets are ridiculously strong. Maybe they used a different magnet because neodymium is soo brittle?
Yes this is by far the best one I have for keeping the bits in it has a magnet as well as a snap ring round the top that clicks into the small marks on the side of the bits , it’s that strong a fit that the first few times I used it I had to pull the bits out with pliers I thought it was faulty but it soon got easier to pull out by hand ! Also it’s stainless steel and very good quality [External image (uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com), not copied]
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This is my favorite here, locks your bits in so they won’t pop out, it’s smaller too
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KC_Tool wrote:
On May 12, 2017 at 1:30 PM, KC_Tool said:Just use Wera, Wiha, or Felo bits and forget about it. Shatter one (shoot a pic of it) and Ill gladly give you a new one.
Yeah, but youre part of the evil cartel trying to sell us tools.
On that note, I think I’ll be placing an order later this week.
JimboS1ice wrote:
On May 12, 2017 at 9:36 AM, JimboS1ice said:
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She could explain things to me as many times as she wants.