JimboS1ice wrote:
11 hours ago, JimboS1ice said:Like flexvolt ope? You really need three voltages of string trimmers?
Yes. I’m surprised that you’d even ask that question…don’t you know that there’s no such thing as “too many” power tools?? [External image (i15.photobucket.com), not copied]
JimboS1ice wrote:
12 hours ago, JimboS1ice said:
Like flexvolt ope? You really need three voltages of string trimmers?
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You laugh but wait until One Key OPE comes out 😆 “throttle down to 15 volt performance; sometimes 18 is just too much!”
Kato wrote:
1 hour ago, Kato said:
Which is one of the biggest selling points for Ryobi, you don’t have to worry about switching battery platforms, and you can use the oldest tools with the newest batteries. Just think of the joy you would have if the big brands did the same thing. You’d never hear…
“I have to sell my old tools so I can buy the new ones, because the batteries don’t fit.”.
And you’d also never hear…”Gee, I wish someone would make a battery adapter…”. I think adapters are kinda silly, with everyone trying to make tools more compact, you now want to go and add more to it instead of less.
If this was the case we wouldn’t have half the types of tools we have now. New tech means new possibilities for cordless.
This is why I started to switch over from DeWalt To Milwaukee years ago. DeWalt made some great stuff but was always last to the plate with anything new. Then they started to turn that around over the last couple of years but now it looks like they are sliding back into their old ways. DeWalt’s 20 volt line has become the red headed stepchild. The Flexvolx system is great but to me is limited in it’s piratical use. I personally would rather change out my battery a couple times a day the to lug that heavy big ass battery around all day. It’s fine for the miter saw and table saw but not so much on hand tools.
Lol if 20v Max is the red headed stepchild 12v Max must have been put up for adoption. 40v is the distant cousin that only gets talked about occasionally ;D
What’s the difference between a FlexVolt battery and a HD9.0 on a circular saw, Sawzall, grinder, which many of us think is great, or as has been mentioned how the HD9.0 wakes up the Fuel Hole Hawg? I don’t think many of us are advocating 9.0 or FlexVolt batteries on impact drivers or compact drills.
I’m also interested in where things will go; will my Fuel grinder or FlexVolt grinder be obsolete first? Maybe Dewalt is the same bunch of fools they’ve been for years and FlexVolt will crash and burn. In that case, I’m glad the mitre is hybrid :lol:. I think it’s more likely we see Milwaukee debut M18 batteries with 20700 cells at NPS17 and the masses sing their praises. Hell, I’d buy some new batteries to boost the performance of my tools. It’s equally likely we see M18x2 as Milwaukee realizes they are quickly approaching the limits of what they’ll get out of 18650 cells.
ChrisK wrote:
5 hours ago, ChrisK said:I’m hoping they really expand the use of the power station. There aren’t too many mobile tools that could benefit from cordless but Dewalt hit the nail on the head with the ones they introduced. I don’t believe this is a death tolling for the 20v line at all but Dewalt has really made a lot of headway in reliability and introducing tools that were clearly researched prior to their introduction. Sure they have been slow to start the ball rolling but there marketing is pretty solid and field use as well as homeowner use is singing praises. Top of the pro landscaping tools and they are kicking it in to high speed. Finally. Though I’m STILL waiting for my bradder.
I tend to agree that hindsight will be kind to the Flexvolt. I think time will prove it to be the smart play as opposed to simply going with higher amp hour batteries.
JimboS1ice wrote:
19 hours ago, JimboS1ice said:
Like flexvolt ope? You really need three voltages of string trimmers?
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I know right?! I can possibly see the 18V for homeowners that have already bought into that line and of course the 60V makes the most sense. But 40V? This seems like a senseless filler voltage to me. Really with OPE we are talking long sustained loads as opposed to mostly intermittent loads with our power tools. In my opinion, 60V should be the only option and am most likely going to pull the trigger on their FlexVolt trimmer. Would like to see a TIA review first though(hint, hint).
tpamatmat wrote:
21 minutes ago, tpamatmat said:I know right?! I can possibly see the 18V for homeowners that have already bought into that line and of course the 60V makes the most sense. But 40V? This seems like a senseless filler voltage to me. Really with OPE we are talking long sustained loads as opposed to mostly intermittent loads with our power tools. In my opinion, 60V should be the only option and am most likely going to pull the trigger on their FlexVolt trimmer. Would like to see a TIA review first though(hint, hint).
The 40v tools have battery packs with more amp hours than flex volt at the moment. In 60v mode a FV pack is only 2ah on the 6ah pack and 3.0ah on the 9.0ah pack. That is not a great run time for a outdoor tool.
Cheng Liu wrote:
On 2/12/2017 at 5:52 PM, Cheng Liu said:Just to add insult to injury, although I guess this makes some sense since Ryobi and Ridgid are owned by the same parent company (TTI). I wonder if Milwaukee (also owned by TTI) will eventually come out with one as well.
Isn’t Ridgid owned by Emerson Electric and TTi just makes most Ridgid power tools as OEM for Emerson.
JohnKitinsky wrote:
12 minutes ago, JohnKitinsky said:Isn’t Ridgid owned by Emerson Electric and TTi just makes most Ridgid power tools as OEM for Emerson.
Yes
DR99 wrote:
21 minutes ago, DR99 said:The 40v tools have battery packs with more amp hours than flex volt at the moment. In 60v mode a FV pack is only 2ah on the 6ah pack and 3.0ah on the 9.0ah pack. That is not a great run time for a outdoor tool.
Yeah, the packs are huge. 36w x 7.5 ah = 270 watt hours vs 54 x 3.0 = 162 watt hours with the new bigger FlexVolt battery. They should kill 40v, slap 2x 3.0×9.0 on FlexVolt OPE and consolidate their bloat.
I really wonder if the FV 60v OPE has more power than the 20v counterparts. I just wonder why they needed a FV line of OPE when they could have used the 20v line but just sold them with FV for more run time.
DR99 wrote:
42 minutes ago, DR99 said:The 40v tools have battery packs with more amp hours than flex volt at the moment. In 60v mode a FV pack is only 2ah on the 6ah pack and 3.0ah on the 9.0ah pack. That is not a great run time for a outdoor tool.
Just checked, and your right DeWalt does have some huge battery packs for their 40V line. So now I am even more confused about their voltage lineup? With such huge battery packs I assume their 40V line is targeting the professional landscaper market, then what is 60V line main target? More power than the 40V line but with less runtime?
Bremon wrote:
27 minutes ago, Bremon said:Yeah, the packs are huge. 36w x 7.5 ah = 270 watt hours vs 54 x 3.0 = 162 watt hours with the new bigger FlexVolt battery. They should kill 40v, slap 2x 3.0×9.0 on FlexVolt OPE and consolidate their bloat.
Agreed, higher voltage equals higher efficiency due to less current and heat. If any voltage line should target the pro landscape market it should be their 60V line. Drop the 40V and offer a 60V battery with increased capacity for the pros.
I read on Dewalt facebook page that 40V will remain the line of choice for professional landscaper because of their long runtime. The Flexvolt line is more for the homeowners who already own flexvolt batteries and just use their outdoor equipment occasionally.
DR99 wrote:
20 minutes ago, DR99 said:I really wonder if the FV 60v OPE has more power than the 20v counterparts. I just wonder why they needed a FV line of OPE when they could have used the 20v line but just sold them with FV for more run time.
Not really apples to apples, but I have compared the 20V DeWalt trimmer to the 56V Echo and it was night and day in regards to power.
Pouet wrote:
12 minutes ago, Pouet said:I read on Dewalt facebook page that 40V will remain the line of choice for professional landscaper because of their long runtime. The Flexvolt line is more for the homeowners who already own flexvolt batteries and just use their outdoor equipment occasionally.
Seems odd though, right? You have a 60V line of products with more power and potential for the professional market and yet they push a less suited 40V line just because they have larger battery packs? Why not just produce battery packs with larger capacity for their 60V line.
I believe the 7.5 ah 40v max is 30 18650 2500 mah cells. I’d rather see that trashed and then move to 2x 3.0 FlexVolt batteries which would be 30 20700 3000 mah cells. More efficient cells and more watt hours. The “continue to support pro landscaper with 40v line” is the usual PR garbage where a company supports a line up until you realize they don’t, then they drop it 16 months after they realize everyone read the writing on the wall lol. I’m sure the liars in SBD marketing would have us believe Dewalt is deeply committed to the 12v Max platform as well. Them having their toes dipped in 6 pools worth of batteries does nothing but instill a lack of confidence in potential buyers. At least Milwaukee only really does M18 and M12 and just pretends M28 and M4 don’t exist. Nobody questions Makita’s dedication to their 18v or 12v lines.
tpamatmat wrote:
13 minutes ago, tpamatmat said:Seems odd though, right? You have a 60V line of products with more power and potential for the professional market and yet they push a less suited 40V line just because they have larger battery packs? Why not just produce battery packs with larger capacity for their 60V line.
Well I’m not saying it’s not BS but in order to have the same runtime as a 40V battery, a 60V battery on a 60v tool would need to be bigger. The tool would probably be bigger as well. This may not be practical for professional users but ok for occasional users. At the same time, 20V is probably too low a voltage for outdoor tools, hence the 40v platform.
I see the 40V being the equivalent of the 20v platform but for landscapers. This way they can focus on providing optimized ergonomics just for these users. But who knows, sometimes Dewalt is hard to follow but I like them having different lines optimized for specific use cases. I just wish they would give their 12v line a little more love. Love the ergonomics of the 12v driver. I’m a bit more hopeful after seeing this website : https://www.dewalt12volt.com/.
Why would a tool or battery need to be bigger to be 60 volts? The only real difference is the wiring. I already explained the watt hours, which is basically the gas tank, ie, energy potential. The battery cells play a huge part too. There’s a reason the FlexVolt 3.0/9.0 gets almost double the runtime of the 2.0/6.0 despite the numbers saying it would need to be 4.0/12.0 for that to make sense.
Pouet wrote:
50 minutes ago, Pouet said:
Well I’m not saying it’s not BS but in order to have the same runtime as a 40V battery, a 60V battery on a 60v tool would need to be bigger. The tool would probably be bigger as well. This may not be practical for professional users but ok for occasional users. At the same time, 20V is probably too low a voltage for outdoor tools, hence the 40v platform.
I see the 40V being the equivalent of the 20v platform but for landscapers. This way they can focus on providing optimized ergonomics just for these users. But who knows, sometimes Dewalt is hard to follow but I like them having different lines optimized for specific use cases. I just wish they would give their 12v line a little more love. Love the ergonomics of the 12v driver. I’m a bit more hopeful after seeing this website : https://www.dewalt12volt.com/.
That website just seems to be for the 12v automotive charging stuff nothing to do with 12v battery powered tools.
DR99 wrote:
49 minutes ago, DR99 said:That website just seems to be for the 12v automotive charging stuff nothing to do with 12v battery powered tools.
Bremon wrote:
52 minutes ago, Bremon said:Why would a tool or battery need to be bigger to be 60 volts? The only real difference is the wiring. I already explained the watt hours, which is basically the gas tank, ie, energy potential. The battery cells play a huge part too. There’s a reason the FlexVolt 3.0/9.0 gets almost double the runtime of the 2.0/6.0 despite the numbers saying it would need to be 4.0/12.0 for that to make sense.
Because the higher the voltage applied on a motor is, the higher the magnetic field intensity is. If the magnetic field is too strong for your core (the rotor in the case of a motor), you end up in saturation territory which usually results in your motor getting destroyed. In order to increase the capacity of your motor to handle bigger magnetic fields, you need to increase the size of the rotor which result in a bigger and heavier motor. The same goes with transformer by the way. So to increase the voltage, you must increase the motor size. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)
DR99 wrote:
50 minutes ago, DR99 said:That website just seems to be for the 12v automotive charging stuff nothing to do with 12v battery powered tools.
Yeah, this is what I was afraid of…
@Pouet look at the class of tools we are talking about. The motors aren’t massively different, they are releasing 60v Max OPE. Look at the blowers: nearly identical, FlexVolt has more CFM, more MPH and weighs less.
DR99 wrote:
I really wonder if the FV 60v OPE has more power than the 20v counterparts. I just wonder why they needed a FV line of OPE when they could have used the 20v line but just sold them with FV for more run time.
Sometimes I wonder if quite a few of their tools are really 60v lol
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tpamatmat wrote:
5 hours ago, tpamatmat said:With such huge battery packs I assume their 40V line is targeting the professional landscaper market, then what is 60V line main target? More power than the 40V line but with less runtime?
Agreed, higher voltage equals higher efficiency due to less current and heat. If any voltage line should target the pro landscape market it should be their 60V line. Drop the 40V and offer a 60V battery with increased capacity for the pros.
The 60v line is not targeted to be 60v at all, it’s to reach 120v in series with only 2 batteries (40v would need 3). Logically it’s the only reasonable solution to overcoming the mains power bottleneck of 120v 20amp that this system is destined to do eventually. Batteries are the future for all power tools that can utilize extra amperage, there really is no limit to potential with continued improvements across the board. Perfectly reasonable to suggest that in the near future for instance we’ll have cordless demo breakers with twice the power of one you’d plug into the wall, or vacuums with more suction than all the Kardashians combined.
Pouet wrote:
8 hours ago, Pouet said:
Well I’m not saying it’s not BS but in order to have the same runtime as a 40V battery, a 60V battery on a 60v tool would need to be bigger. The tool would probably be bigger as well. This may not be practical for professional users but ok for occasional users. At the same time, 20V is probably too low a voltage for outdoor tools, hence the 40v platform.
The Echo 58V 4.0ah battery pack weighs slightly less than the DeWalt 40V 7.5ah battery pack. Echo’s pack uses 2500mah 18650’s, configuring it with 20700 3000mah cells would result in a battery pack with similar run times(due to increased battery capacity/motor efficiency) and minimal weight gain.
Pouet wrote:
7 hours ago, Pouet said:
Because the higher the voltage applied on a motor is, the higher the magnetic field intensity is. If the magnetic field is too strong for your core (the rotor in the case of a motor), you end up in saturation territory which usually results in your motor getting destroyed. In order to increase the capacity of your motor to handle bigger magnetic fields, you need to increase the size of the rotor which result in a bigger and heavier motor. The same goes with transformer by the way. So to increase the voltage, you must increase the motor size. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)
You do not have to increase the motor size every time you increase the voltage. Only when the increase in voltage saturates the motor. Do you know that the increase from 40V to 60V on the DeWalt 40V brushless motors saturates them? In the RC world it is often shown that you can go with a smaller motor at higher voltage. RC is all about weight.
Hugh Jass wrote:
4 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:
The 60v line is not targeted to be 60v at all, it’s to reach 120v in series with only 2 batteries (40v would need 3). Logically it’s the only reasonable solution to overcoming the mains power bottleneck of 120v 20amp that this system is destined to do eventually. Batteries are the future for all power tools that can utilize extra amperage, there really is no limit to potential with continued improvements across the board. Perfectly reasonable to suggest that in the near future for instance we’ll have cordless demo breakers with twice the power of one you’d plug into the wall, or vacuums with more suction than all the Kardashians combined.
I do not doubt you Hugh, that may very well be their end game but as of today they have a 60V line. Targeted or not, its ninety percent of their FV tools and their whole OPE market. So don’t not support it just because you want to protect your 40V line. Look, all I want is for DeWalt to produce a trimmer that beats my neighbors Echo. He has a bigger house, his lawn is always immaculate and his kids get straight A’s. God help me if they go to Med school, i’ll never hear the end of it. So for the love of god DeWalt, a larger battery please so I can wipe that smug smile off my neighbors face 🙂
I don’t have any 40v tools nor would I buy any, I live on an island that has very little grass, and even if I did, I wouldn’t buy it anyway because that’s designed for commercial use.
Sounds to me like you need to buy an Echo so you and your neighbor can have races to see who’s the dominant male, winner takes the wives, loser takes the kids.
Hugh Jass wrote:
6 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:I don’t have any 40v tools nor would I buy any, I live on an island that has very little grass, and even if I did, I wouldn’t buy it anyway because that’s designed for commercial use.
Sounds to me like you need to buy an Echo so you and your neighbor can have races to see who’s the dominant male, winner takes the wives, loser takes the kids.
I’m with you for right now on the 40v stuff though….I am thinking about starting some small time lawn care when I retire and may consider that lineup. Right now I’ve got the 20v hedge trimmer and it is awesome. Coupled with the 60v battery it doesn’t die. This will segway into the weed whacker next.
tpamatmat wrote:
10 hours ago, tpamatmat said:
The Echo 58V 4.0ah battery pack weighs slightly less than the DeWalt 40V 7.5ah battery pack. Echo’s pack uses 2500mah 18650’s, configuring it with 20700 3000mah cells would result in a battery pack with similar run times(due to increased battery capacity/motor efficiency) and minimal weight gain.
Yeah it’s possible but it may cost more (I don’t know the different cell prices) and it’s hard to tell at which load which motor is more efficient. You need to check the data sheets and do some simulation. I’m not saying their statement is not bullshit, just saying that there could be real engineering reasons to not dump the 40V line.
10 hours ago, tpamatmat said:
You do not have to increase the motor size every time you increase the voltage. Only when the increase in voltage saturates the motor. Do you know that the increase from 40V to 60V on the DeWalt 40V brushless motors saturates them? In the RC world it is often shown that you can go with a smaller motor at higher voltage. RC is all about weight.
Agreed. That’s why I said it may increase. You can also use better material I suppose with better magnetic permeability but it may cost more.
It’s really hard to tell without all the data so that’s why I’m trying to keep an open mind. I may be too optimistic 🙂
Hugh Jass wrote:
5 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:Sounds to me like you need to buy an Echo so you and your neighbor can have races to see who’s the dominant male, winner takes the wives, loser takes the kids.
Well I have the smaller yard so I would definitely finish first, also guess who has the most tools 🙂
Pouet wrote:
42 minutes ago, Pouet said:
Yeah it’s possible but it may cost more (I don’t know the different cell prices) and it’s hard to tell at which load which motor is more efficient. You need to check the data sheets and do some simulation. I’m not saying their statement is not bullshit, just saying that there could be real engineering reasons to not dump the 40V line.
Could be, were not engineers (i’m not anyway) and I am sure there are some very bright guys at DeWalt. We can only hope that their decisions are based on engineering and not marketing.
JimboS1ice wrote:
On 2/12/2017 at 6:26 PM, JimboS1ice said:
Like flexvolt ope? You really need three voltages of string trimmers?
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yes
@BMack37 @Bremon guys common we can all agree Black and Decker is best haha 😛
Jronman wrote:
1 minute ago, Jronman said:yes
@BMack37 @Bremon guys common we can all agree Black and Decker is best haha 😛
Everyone knows Orange is perfection. Stihl, Husqvarna, Black&Decker. We aren’t deliberating over expensive boutique brands here @Jronman lol.
40v has more ope in the lineup than 60v or 20v. Backpack blower, pole hedge clippers (apparently not out yet?), 6 bay smart charger
tpamatmat wrote:
I do not doubt you Hugh, that may very well be their end game but as of today they have a 60V line. Targeted or not, its ninety percent of their FV tools and their whole OPE market. So don’t not support it just because you want to protect your 40V line. Look, all I want is for DeWalt to produce a trimmer that beats my neighbors Echo. He has a bigger house, his lawn is always immaculate and his kids get straight A’s. God help me if they go to Med school, i’ll never hear the end of it. So for the love of god DeWalt, a larger battery please so I can wipe that smug smile off my neighbors face [emoji4]
Just go get an ego bro and you can trim yours and his lawn and still have time to trim his wives hedges [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] sorry I had to
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JimboS1ice wrote:
1 hour ago, JimboS1ice said:
Just go get an ego bro and you can trim yours and his lawn and still have time to trim his wives hedges emoji23.pngemoji23.pngemoji23.pngemoji23.png sorry I had to
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Hahahaha….very funny, now about those hedges… 🙂
Get her some hedges…bitches love hedges.
Hugh Jass wrote:
On 2/14/2017 at 8:34 AM, Hugh Jass said:I don’t have any 40v tools nor would I buy any, I live on an island that has very little grass, and even if I did, I wouldn’t buy it anyway because that’s designed for commercial use.
Sounds to me like you need to buy an Echo so you and your neighbor can have races to see who’s the dominant male, winner takes the wives, loser takes the kids.
…LOL
KnarlyCarl wrote:
2 hours ago, KnarlyCarl said:
LOL…haven’t seen that one in awhile. We made that video ages ago 🙂
I’ll give DeWalt credit for coming out with a cordless track saw
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@rrich1 Didn’t they have a stick pack 18v track saw? Festool also has a dual battery track saw that can run with either 1 or 2 batteries.
Jronman wrote:
[mention=50861]rrich1[/mention] Didn’t they have a stick pack 18v track saw? Festool also has a dual battery track saw that can run with either 1 or 2 batteries.
They did have a stick style for a bit overseas. Every once in awhile one shows up on Ebay UK. I tried to get one a couple times but no one would ship it here.
Bremon wrote:
On 2/12/2017 at 8:28 AM, Bremon said:It seems brand new designs and oddball stuff usually goes to the junk brands first to have kinks ironed out rather than have egg on the face of the premium brands a la 23gauge Makita pinner.
That may be true, but Ryobi has been making some of those “oddball” tools successfully for years and others still haven’t. One example is the tire inflator. I have owned it for close to four years now, it has worked great every time I have used it and I really can’t see any practical way to make it much better. Thus far, as far as I know; Ryobi is the only company that makes one.
@Cheng Liu I’ve been preaching the need for inflators for years. Milwaukee doesn’t feel they are “professional” enough to make a red version of, despite trucks and trailers having tires that work best when they are properly inflated.
@Bremon Some decisions that companies make are nothing short of baffling to me. It’s like how Ryobi has yet to re-release a cordless shop vac despite the obvious demand for one. That is proven by the fact that they made one many years ago. It wasn’t particularly successful because the batteries of that time were not nearly as good as they are now. Now that vac, long discontinued and rare is fetching high prices on-line when one appears at all (since Ryobi tools of the past are still compatible with the newest Ryobi batteries). All they would need to do is take the Milwaukee one and change the housing from red and black to lime green and charcoal.
Cheng Liu wrote:
14 hours ago, Cheng Liu said:@Bremon Some decisions that companies make are nothing short of baffling to me. It’s like how Ryobi has yet to re-release a cordless shop vac despite the obvious demand for one. That is proven by the fact that they made one many years ago. It wasn’t particularly successful because the batteries of that time were not nearly as good as they are now. Now that vac, long discontinued and rare is fetching high prices on-line when one appears at all (since Ryobi tools of the past are still compatible with the newest Ryobi batteries). All they would need to do is take the Milwaukee one and change the housing from red and black to lime green and charcoal.
It would be nice if Ryobi or Milwaukee put out brushless version of that shop vac. I also wouldn’t mind seeing a brushless DeWalt Flex Volt version, at 60V it would really suck(in a good way).
Cheng Liu wrote:
On 2/24/2017 at 2:19 PM, Cheng Liu said:That may be true, but Ryobi has been making some of those “oddball” tools successfully for years and others still haven’t. One example is the tire inflator. I have owned it for close to four years now, it has worked great every time I have used it and I really can’t see any practical way to make it much better. Thus far, as far as I know; Ryobi is the only company that makes one.
Porter Cable made a great inflator for their 18v line. It can top off all of my truck’s tires (about 3-4 psi each) with one of the puny 1.3 Ah batteries that was standard for that line. If the battery dies, it also has a cigarette lighter cord. After putting a lot of money into DeWalt and having started to buy a few Fuel tools, I have to admit that I’m eying the Ryobi inflator to replace the PC when it finally quits working. If one came out in Yellow or maybe Red first, though, I wouldn’t look twice at the Ryobi.
KnarlyCarl wrote:
On 2/17/2017 at 2:48 PM, KnarlyCarl said:
Dang it KnarlyCarl, I just lost an hour of my life…